Gwendilyn, 7th level character (title change)

[BobROE]

Primary hand rapier 1st attack: 1d6 +3 str +8 int + 7 power attack + 3d4 arcane strike = 29 points average.
Primary hand rapier 2nd attack: 1d6 +3 str +8 int + 7 power attack = 22 points average.
Secondary hand rapier 1st attack: 1d6 +3 str +8 int + 7 power attack = 22 points average.
Extra attack rapier: 1d6 +3 str +8 int + 7 power attack = 22 points average.

On your off hand attack you only get half your strength bonus. So in the example above, your secondary hand attack wound only do +1 str damage.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

I'm reading that Gwendilyn is entitled to 36,000 gp in magical items.
I will give her these items now, in an effort to compliment the character.

(looks uneasy, since this kind of thing was uncommon in 2nd edition)

+3 mithral breastplate
+2 keen rapier
+2 ring of protection


Only 3 weapons in the game benefit from both Power Attack and from Weapon Finesse: the rapier, the spiked chain, and the whip.
The spiked chain and the whip both require 2 hands to use.
This means the rapier is the sole instance of a weapon where two such weapons could be used, and benefit from both Power Attack and Weapon Finesse. Or so it seems.

Since it would require a feat to allow for competent two weapon fighting, because nobody historically fenced with two rapiers, and because bladesingers prefer to fight one-handed (they can't use bladesong any other way) I will assume that ... Gwendilyn is not using her off-hand at all.
I'll give her a short sword and a dagger, the weapons of history to compliment her primary hand, but it's doubtful she ever uses them.

This will, of course, reduce Gwendilyn's damage capacity. With a +2 keen rapier, she threatens on a 15-20. A successful critical causes double damage, as usual.

Her attack bonus rises to +14/+8 with this weapon.
Her damage on successful hits would be:

1d6 +1 weapon focus +1 str +6 int +2 enhancement: for an average of 13.5 points.
If she struck and hit twice, damage would rise to 26 points (half str bonus)
If she used all her BAB in power attack, her damage would rise to 40 points (but she would only do that, as a friend of mine noted, for opponents with AC 10 or under special circumstances.)
If she used Haste and thus attacked thrice, without power attack, damage would be 40.
If she used Haste, attacked thrice, and used full power attack, damage would be 61.
If she was fortified with bear's strength and fox's cunning (a pity they nerfed those spells ...) then her damage would further increase to 73.

If Gwendilyn used haste, her whole power attack, arcane strike, bear's strength and fox's cunning, and hit with all attacks, her average damage would be 73 points.

(chuckles) A much nerfed version of my 180 point devastation assault, no? But hey, I'll take 73 points of damage in a single round any day, and I'll bet most others would too.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Hmmm ... I think I have Gwendilyn completed.
Now, I need to challenge someone else's 9th level hypothetical character to a PBP battle here on ENWorld.

 

[Amazing Triangle]

There is a build that a friend and I concoted hope you enjoy: (yes it is completely playable)

Druid Level 9/Master of Many Forms 6

Powerful Charge (MH), Greater powerful charge (MH), Natural Spell,.......

Enlarge to a Garganutan Tiger and enjoy the pouncing goodness adding an amulet of natural weapons makes it more fun ( with a clasp to have to change with you)

I think we figured it to be Claw x2, Bite x1, Pounce, +6d6+big str increase

If you added the template Feral LA+1
Making it the Feral Druid
Claw, Claw, Bite, Pounce, Rend +6d6+New Str Bonus due to size

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Hey there, Amazing Triangle. A pleasure to meet you.
Can you put the entire build up, so I can see the character?

 

[monboesen]

+3 mithral breastplate
+2 keen rapier
+2 ring of protection

Based on my experience I would say that it is very unlikely that you would have three powerful items that more or less has the value of your expected wealth level.

It's much more likely that you would have between 7-10 lesser magic items. In particular Cloaks of protection and Boots of striding and springing have been must haves in all games I have gamed in.

And any character with spell casting ability will stock up on scrolls and wands.

Well and on to something completely different.

Edena would you like to play out some battles in the "playing the game" forum?

I will volunteer to be the DM of some mock battles. I think this would be a much better way for you to learn the game. My initial thought is that you make a standard (25 point buy, 125 gp) 1st level party of four characters (or I can make them for you) and run all four PC's.

It won't be a campaign or even something close to real gaming, But it might help you see how the rules work in practise.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

To Monboesen:

Hey there, monboesen, I'm back.

Just after I saw your post above, my computer froze me out of ENWorld, so my immediate response last night did not appear. My apologies for the silence last night.

I am taking you up on the offer. Yes, I'll create the four characters, and conduct the battle. Thank you for the offer, and for trying to help me!

I already have Narrin the Bold (fighter 1st) and Claire (wizard 1st) from my other thread, complete with personalities.
I can bring a 1st level cleric (I've named him Gnarrus) and create an unnamed rogue (I could make Gwendilyn this rogue of 1st level.)

25 point build. Just the core three books, right? (that's what I'm assuming.)

The buying of items is an exhaustive affair. Is it ok if I concentrate merely on the major items?

(solemnly) I appreciate your offer. Thank you. An offer of effort and time (the world's most precious commodity) is no small thing. I am in your debt.

Yours Sincerely
Edena_of_Neith

 

[DM_Matt]

Hmmm ... I think I have Gwendilyn completed.
Now, I need to challenge someone else's 9th level hypothetical character to a PBP battle here on ENWorld.

Ok, I'll bite. I'll be making a big buff thug, 3.5 rules, wotc sources, same stat rolls.

 

[Silveras]

I was using the whole of the +7/+2. I thought you could only take your BAB, meaning you could add +7 to your primary hand, and +2 to your off-hand, but not more than that.
Are you saying that, with power attack, you can (with BAB +7/+2) add +7/+7 to damage?

Yes

If so, Gwendilyn (her total attack bonus is +12/+7) would drop to an attack bonus of +5/+0. (-7/-7 for power attack.) Then, she'd add +3 for arcane strike, for a final bonus of +8/+3 (what you had.)
In THAT case, however, she would add +7 to all her attacks. I was calculating she could only add 2 to her off-hand attacks with power attack, because her off-hand BAB was +2. Was I wrong? (I hope I was wrong. )

Yes, you were wrong

The trick is this: Your BAB is the single highest number in the Attacks entry on the class charts. The ones after the slashes are your iterative attacks, equal to your BAB - 5 per "generation" of attacks. Power Attack, and anything else that works on BAB, uses that highest number. Once you choose to Power Attack, you suffer the attack penalty to all attacks that round, and gain the damage bonus to all successful attacks that round.

Note that "that round" means until your next turn; so any Attacks of Opportunity you make until your next turn are also affected.

Primary hand damage: 1d6+7 + 5 (Power Attack) + 3d4 arcane strike = 1d6+12 + 3d4 = 23 average (or 1d6+7+7(Power Attack) + 3d4, for 25).

Secondary hand damage: 1d4+7 +0 (Power Attack cannot add damage to Light weapons, but the penalty to attack is applied) + 0 arcane strike (applies to one weapon only) = 9.5 average.

If you cannot add power attack to light weapons, then Gwendilyn would use a rapier in her off-hand, accepting the -4/-4 penalty. She'd drop the rapier in her off-hand if she desired to employ the Bladesong Style.

Thus:

Primary hand rapier: 1d6 +1 str +6 int +7 power attack +3d4 arcane strike = 24 points of damage on average.
Secondary hand rapier: 1d6 +1 str +6 int +7 power attack (IF you can add the full +7 primary BAB to your off-hand strike ... can you?) = 18 points of damage on average.

A total of 40 points of damage.

Using a one-handed weapon in your off-hand allows only 1/2 Strength bonus to damage.

Gwendilyn has an attack bonus of +12/+7. Her BAB, however, is +7/+2.
If she casts Haste, she gains +1 to her attack bonus (all rolls.)
If she is carrying a rapier in both hands, she is -4/-4, so her attack bonus is modified to +9/+4. I'm guessing that is she drops all of her +7 BAB into damage, she drops another 7 to +2/-3 for her final attack bonus. (Is that right?)
Gwendilyn would not cast Haste in the middle of combat. She does not have the Song of Celerity yet!
Gwendilyn would cast Haste prior to combat. In combat, she'd dump it into Arcane Strike.

Haste lasts 1 round per level. If she's casting it before combat, it is not long before. Most likely, she might cast it if she has a surprise round, then.

Note I haven't given Gwendilyn any magical items. She is entitled to magical items for 9th level. What items would you suggest for her?

A +2 weapon and some kind of +2 protective gear are probably reasonable. One problem with characters built at Nth level is that they tend to have better gear than they should, because the player is not "stuck with" things that survived from lower levels. Generally, when I DM such, I impose a "no one item worth more than 25% of your wealth" rule.

You say Haste grants only one additional attack. I read that, but ...
Are you sure this applies when one is striking with a weapon in either hand?

Then it would say "with each weapon" as opposed to "with any weapon". Any is singular. Of course, I *may* be giving the authors too much credit for a subtlety of the language.

If so, then (assumes Bull's Strength, Fox's Cunning, Haste)

Primary hand rapier 1st attack: 1d6 +3 str +8 int + 7 power attack + 3d4 arcane strike = 29 points average.
Primary hand rapier 2nd attack: 1d6 +3 str +8 int + 7 power attack = 22 points average.
Secondary hand rapier 1st attack: 1d6 +3 str +8 int + 7 power attack = 22 points average.
Extra attack rapier: 1d6 +3 str +8 int + 7 power attack = 22 points average.

That's still 95 points of damage. It's not 180 points, but 95 is a lot of damage for a 9th level character to hurl (without any magical items or magical weapons, even!)

That would be an impressive amount of damage, IF they all hit. It is quite likely that one of them will miss. Also, a smart opponent who does more damage per hit might stay out of reach, making you continue to close, so that you would only get 1 regular attack + 1 for haste.

Also, while no magic items are involved, THREE spells ARE.

 

[Silveras]

Only 3 weapons in the game benefit from both Power Attack and from Weapon Finesse: the rapier, the spiked chain, and the whip.
The spiked chain and the whip both require 2 hands to use.
This means the rapier is the sole instance of a weapon where two such weapons could be used, and benefit from both Power Attack and Weapon Finesse. Or so it seems.

I was looking at the Rapier and Power Attack while posting last night (I have been caught with my foot in my mouth too often not to double-check when I post). As I read them, they do work together with some limitations - you cannot wield the Rapier with both hands for extra damage, for example.

I suspect that the Rapier is supposed to be excluded from applying power attack and finesse at the same time (the one is a wilder swing for greater impact, the other a more precise attack), but that is not what the rules say.