Hackmaster Advanced Players Handbook ('5th Edition')

[gambler1650]

Anyone else interested in this? I downloaded the PDF after preordering the Player's Handbook. Also have the Hacklopedia on the way.

The one thing that sort of held me back on this was the setting. I had the Kalamar D&D 3.5 sourcebooks but found them too bland and poorly written (with horrible names for places...) compared to other sourcebooks. The maps were things of beauty though.

The rulebook so far definitely evokes an 'old school' style game, and implies (or sometimes just plain tells you) that GMs for Hackmaster should have an adversarial relationship with the players. Obviously a GM could choose any style of game, and could follow the much more usual "we're all in this together " mentality of current gaming groups, but I do find it amusing...

In any event, I'm pretty jazzed about this - after having gone on a recent 'new RPG' buying binge (including Aces & Eights, DCC, ACK, and Lamentations of the Fire Princess).

 

[Treebore]

I have the HoB, so can tell you that you will be blown away with the production values. Gorgeous, gorgeous book!

I ran HM basic for about 8 months, weekly, then played it for several more months, weekly. I had fun, but this game hasn't excited me like it has others, so I am not buying this book until I find it at a price I am willing to gamble on. This is because everything I read on the forums convinced me I was more likely to continue to not get excited about this game. Which I actually find hugely disappointing, because I love Aces and Eights to pieces.

It does seem to be a solid game and I hope you end up being one of the people who fall's in love with it, just so far I am not one of them.

 

[Alzrius]

I had fun, but this game hasn't excited me like it has others, so I am not buying this book until I find it at a price I am willing to gamble on. This is because everything I read on the forums convinced me I was more likely to continue to not get excited about this game.

Can you expound on this? I like the idea of HackMaster, but I so far haven't gotten the original game (aka HackMaster Fourth Edition), nor HackMaster Basic. However, after seeing the preview in a recent issue of Knights of the Dinner Table, I'm entertaining thoughts of picking up the newest HackMaster (aka Advanced HackMaster), so I'm curious what you've heard that turned you off to it.

 

[frankthedm]

Can you expound on this? I like the idea of HackMaster, but I so far haven't gotten the original game (aka HackMaster Fourth Edition), nor HackMaster Basic.

Hackmaster 4E = Comedic upgrade to 1E & 2E AD&D with some new additions. Kenzer got to make this because Wotc screwed up and reproduced KODT comics in the Dragon Magazine CD-ROM without proper licencing. Apparently Wotc just offered up AD&D like a sacrificial lamb when they settled out of court.


Hackmaster basic / Advanced Players Guide = Complete rebuild because Kenzer no longer has rights to AD&D.

However, after seeing the preview in a recent issue of Knights of the Dinner Table, I'm entertaining thoughts of picking up the newest HackMaster (aka Advanced HackMaster), so I'm curious what you've heard that turned you off to it.

I'd say the previews of the combat mechanics in Hackmaster Basic turned me off of the game.
http://www.kenzerco.com/free_files/HMb/HMb_combat_example.pdf


There is a new one, though I have not had the time to read through this one completely yet, but it sure looks like it still takes too much table time to deal with a few weak foes.

http://www.kenzerco.com/hackmaster/downloads/HMPHB_illustrated_example.pdf

 

[Alzrius]

Hackmaster 4E = Comedic upgrade to 1E & 2E AD&D with some new additions. Kenzer got to make this because Wotc screwed up and reproduced KODT comics in the Dragon Magazine CD-ROM without proper licencing. Apparently Wotc just offered up AD&D like a sacrificial lamb when they settled out of court.

Yeah, I know. That's also how they got to put the D&D logo on their Kingdoms of Kalamar books for a while (though WotC did get to approve the KoK books that were so distinguished).

There is a new one, though I have not had the time to read through this one completely yet, but it sure looks like it still takes too much table time to deal with a few weak foes.

http://www.kenzerco.com/hackmaster/downloads/HMPHB_illustrated_example.pdf

Okay, this is the example I referred to above, and I was actually quite taken with it. Yes, it does look complicated, but no moreso than my current RPG of choice (Pathfinder), so I think it could go very quickly once the rules are second nature to everyone. What I did like was how spellcasting takes multiple "seconds" in a turn, and that actions in the initiative order have a sort of duration for how long they take, which can affect the actions of other characters.

 

[Treebore]

The second by second combat actually flows pretty quickly. Just like anything different it takes time to figure it out and get into the rhythm, but once you do it is actually pretty cool. Its the part of the game I liked the most. Makes sense to me, since it is the same similar count up system that is in Aces and Eights, just the time increments are different.

What I do not like, is all the fiddly bits. The fatigue rules. How you need a little box to write up every weapon to have their speed, damage bonus, attack bonus, etc... written up. Most people I know didn't like tracking this kind of stuff in 1E AD&D, and several of my players didn't like it in this game.

I do not like power point/spell point systems. As far as such systems go, this one is pretty good, and even though the mage seems limited at first, as his spell points grow, so do his spell casting options, but I hated doing the math on top of it. If you like keeping a running total on numbers ranging from 60 to 120, and can vary from there depending on what options you chose to add to the spell your casting, you may love it. Guess I am too much of a fan of fire and forget, because I would rather forget than track the math involved in these spell point numbers.

Now if you don't mind tracking math, and if you like "fiddly bits" that give you lots of options and realism, you are much more likely to love this system.

Now I am told that they did something similar in this rules set that they did in Aces and Eights, where they have a very simple set of rules, and the more complex rules are optional add ons. My problem is, if that basic rules set is still HM Basic, I seriously doubt I am going to like it any more than I already do. If it is actually able to be done even simpler, and maybe not track so many Spell Points, like maybe a fire and forget option, I may end up loving this final version. But like I said, the price points currently available to me are too high for me to be willing to risk that kind of money on something I am already pretty sure I am not going to like.

The Hacklopedia of Beasts is a bit different for me. The fluff info and the monsters themselves are easy for me to use in other systems I run. So I can get my money out of this purchase, plus it is a really gorgeous book. Which I am sure the other books are going to be as well. I mean Jolly has already shown pictures of the players book, and it does look to be equally gorgeous to the HoB.

 

[mach1.9pants]

HMA would definitely benefit from a character sheet app! The extras (like fatigue) are modular and easily left out. The problem is, for the first time user/reader, is that the modularity isn't 'spelled out'. Most of the sub systems can be dropped very easily because they don't interact. However K.Co dropped the ball by not making this explicit and thus easier to see how/when to drop the sub-systems... DDNext anyone?
But the sec count up is great an keeps everyone at the table involved rather than maybe switching off waiting for their turn (which happened to me a fair bit on 4E cos of the grind of combat).
The production quality of the books is amazing for sure and I look forward to getting the PHB

 

[TanisFrey]

Kenzer is working on an official character sheet for the game and there are several unofficial fan character sheets on the fan creations forums of Kenzer sight.

base spell points are set up so a mage can cast one spell of every level they have available to them once per day with a little left over. Every spell of a given level has the same base spell point cost as long as it is a memorized spell. (30 for apprentice, 40 for journeyman, 50 for 1st, 60 for 2nd .........) You can cast a spell that is nor memorized at double cost. You can also use the spell points for boosting spells or using wands without using charges.

Example the Skipping Betty Fireball, a 5th level spell, does 5d4p damage to a creature it hits and you can have is skip 10 times. It will cost the mage 60 spell points if it is memorized. The mage boost the damage up to a max of 10d4p damage at the cost of 20 spell points per die of damage. Or the mage can boost the number of times it can skip for 10 spell points per extra skip.

As far with dealing with "weak creatures". In Hackmaster a group of dozens of goblins are dangerous even to a high level characters. If a group of PC encounters more than 10 goblins for every PC, the pc better fire off large magics/run or a TPK is in the works even if they are all 20th level.

Unlike D&D where a book standard goblin is 1/3 CR, so 100 book standard goblins is a CR 10 to 15 encounter, I think. A book standard goblin has no chance in 3.5 to hurt a 10th level character let alone the 15th level character.

 

[Agamon]

I have the pdf for the HMPH, but I have yet to play it. I have run HMBasic a couple times and combat does run quite smoothly despite what it may look like in the example. The example has everything in there to show how all the options work and may look more complex than a typical fight.

The book is written with some subtle tongue-in-cheek humor (players shouldn't be "wusses", GMs should be adversarial, etc), but that's the voice of KoDT's Gary Jackson (or maybe it's actually Dave Kenzer, not sure, lol), and while HM is obviously not a team creative writing/acting exercise, you can just take the advice in the book with a grain of salt and run it however you and your group has fun.

Like I say, I haven't run the advanced game yet, it does look more fiddly, but like I said, HMB looks fiddly before playing it, so I'm withholding judgement on that for now.

 

[TanisFrey]

I have been running my hackmaster basic game for over a year and have incorporated most of the Hackmaster PBH into it. Having lots of fun, runs well.

You should try it before deriding it. If you go to the Kenzer boards there are threads that make offers for online games, even demo games are being organized via google + and other services.