half as many skills - half as many skill points?

[evilbob]

If you were to take the existing skill list and chop it almost in half (45 total including Knowledge skills down to 22, mostly by combining two or more similar skills into one), would you give all characters half as many skill points or something more like 3/4ths, or some other sort of scale?

I'm trying to get a feel for what others believe is fair. On one hand, I realize that this rule doesn't address the benefits of a high intelligence, so skill-based classes will likely have WAY more skills total than they already do. On the other hand, I have to say that there's nothing quite as pitiful as having 1 skill point per level (even if I were to combine skills so that it was worth twice as much). What do others think is fair? (Or would it depend too much on how the skills were combined?)

 

[Nadaka]

I would leave skill points unchanged. One of the flaws of D&D is that every single class has been left starving for skill points.

Even the rogue at 8 skill points can not meet its basic skills without a high intelligence modifier. Hide, MS, spot, listen, search, disable device, open lock, slight of hand. Thats the 9 skills/level that a human rogue gets. No room for climb, bluff, tumble, balance, intimidate, knowledge: local, etc.

 

[Hawken]

For my own game, I've trimmed down the skill list quite a bit. One example is merging Balance, Escape Artist and Tumble into Agility. I think I have somewhere around 22-25 skills.

What I've done is keep the skill points the same with the exception that those classes that get 2 points / level now get 4. Everything else stays the same. My players all seem happy with this and have had no problems (that they've mentioned) in having enough skill points to allocate.

They don't "need" a high intelligence to get enough skill points, but just about everyone ends up with at least a 12 in Int to get at least some bonus.

 

[Claudius Gaius]

Halving the skill list and leaving the skill points the same should work just fine; even if it does make a high intelligence more desirable for non-spellcasters there's really nothing wrong with that. There have been really stupid warlords, rulers, mafia dons, merchant princes, and religious leaders (lacking any real-world examples for functioning magi), but they’re much rarer than the clever ones - and a lot of them inherited their positions, got them by being fiends with someone, were appointed because someone considered them reliable, bought them with inherited money, or gained them by popular support, rather than by clawing their way up through the ranks.

We don't usually do it that way - since we use Eclipse point-buy character generation most people invest in things like Adept (gives a price break on a set of skills), Professional Skill (gives a level-based boost to one skill), and/or learning-enhancement abilities if they want a lot of skill points.

The basic problem with d20 skills of course is that the d20 rolls swamp small bonuses with randomness. I can tell you, I don't hit "the best I've ever done!" or "one of my worst-ever efforts!" 5% of the time each. It's about average (a "roll" of 9-12) at least 90% of the time. We usually use 3d6 rolls for skills (Can “take 10" or “take 15"), giving a bell curve distribution for results - and giving a lot more meaning to a +5 total bonus.

That way a new engineering, magical-school, or other college graduate - a level 1 character with a total skill bonus of +5 or +6 (4 skill points, likely attribute modifier of +1 or +2) has a professional-level skill that actually means something. It also means that we don’t have to push the skill DC to absurd heights and that a character who does max out a skill really shines in that area.

 

[Bladesong]

I've trimmed the list to 17 skills, and only reduced the rogue's skills (to 6) because most of the combined skills were ones that rogues usually had to decide between.

 

[Aust Diamondew]

I'd recommend if you specifically lower the amount of skill points some classes get (and not lowering others) to give them something to make up for it.

Force instance if you lower ranger and rogue skill points by 2 bump their hit dice up one size (to a d10 and a d8 respectively).

I've thought about this question my self before, unfortunatly I never get around to clumping the skills together.

 

[Slapzilla]

Definately leave the skill points as they are. I've also used Hawken's 'classes that get 2 pts/ level now get 4' because I try to encourage skill use, so I'll suggest it too.

Combining skills seems like a good idea if you want to re-do the list. But once its done, its done, eh? Balance/Escape Artist/Tumble as Agility makes sense. So does Craft/Knowledge/Profession. Here's my thing. In the real world, I'm a carpenter and I know plenty of people who can make money in the trade, (Profession) who can't explain how to cut a rafter (Knowledge) and use up two to three times the materials to do a crappy job. (Craft) These three skills aren't the same thing. I also tend to parse things overly fine....

I love the skill system as it is so, personally I'd hesitate to combine them as it mashes together things that aren't necessarily well meshed. I think you'd lose flavor in exchange for expediency, and I think its already expedient. But let's be honest, if you like it then by all means do it. I'd like to check out what some trimmed lists look like too.

 

[Claudius Gaius]

Might not "Explaining" how to do a job fall under Profession/Teacher?

Secondarily, we've got to stop subdividing somewhere (Personally I'm Right-Hand Dexterity 13, Left-Hand Dexterity 8, Right Foot Toes Dexterity 7, Left Foot Toes Dexterity 6, and Tongue Dexterity 11). I'm decent at sanding and hand sawing, a lousy joiner, fair at measuring, reasonably good at lathing, OK at gluing, poor at selling, tend to drift a bit with a jigsaw, good at setting up and working with the table saw, and so on. I do quite a few projects around the place, but I'm definitely not a professional. In reality, those are all seperate skills - and in systems like Ysgarth, they'd be bought that way (although they'd also be very cheap because they're very specific).

Personally, I was always amused by TORG skills like "languages" (roll to speak any exotic language you encountered, even if no human had ever heard it before) or "Air Vehicles" (balloons, hang gliders, WWI fighters, supersonic jets, space shuttles, starships, all good).

Blast it, now I feel an urge to get out one of the incredibly-detailed systems that no one else around here has the patience to set up a character for.

 

[Felnar]

i guess i'm against the majority here
i'm all for combining some skills, and think the 2skill/level classes need a bump
but i think the rogue has enough skill points already

Most classes are skill starved because they have none. Rogues are skill starved because they think they should be great at them all.

not ever rogue needs to be able to do it all, nor should they at max ranks
there should be trade-offs and different types of rogues (cat-burglar/fast-talker/trap-hound/acrobat/perceptive/etc)
and since most of the proposed skills condensing is the rogues class skills, rogues definitely should drop in points/level. Not one for one, (i.e. combine hide and MS and drop to 7/level), but maybe lose one skillpoint for two skills removed. (and apply something similar to other classes who's skills are combined)

 

[Sylrae]

For my own game, I've trimmed down the skill list quite a bit. One example is merging Balance, Escape Artist and Tumble into Agility. I think I have somewhere around 22-25 skills.

What I've done is keep the skill points the same with the exception that those classes that get 2 points / level now get 4. Everything else stays the same. My players all seem happy with this and have had no problems (that they've mentioned) in having enough skill points to allocate.

They don't "need" a high intelligence to get enough skill points, but just about everyone ends up with at least a 12 in Int to get at least some bonus.

I dont know why you lumped in escape artist, those to me dont go together. Boosting the 2's and leaving the 4's seems neglectful. Personally I'd up them to 5 (6 seems excessive)

I'd recommend if you specifically lower the amount of skill points some classes get (and not lowering others) to give them something to make up for it.
Force instance if you lower ranger and rogue skill points by 2 bump their hit dice up one size (to a d10 and a d8 respectively).
I've thought about this question my self before, unfortunatly I never get around to clumping the skills together.

No offense, but that Idea is TERRIBLE. having 2 skill points per level is just awful, the ranger is too good already to get boosted to fighter hd that cheap, and enh I dont think the rogue needs the HD boost. thats what the factotum(Dungeonscape) and my adventurer class are for. The rogue is supposed to be more stealthy, and well, 2 skill points isnt worth a HD type.

One of the flaws of D&D is that every single class has been left starving for skill points.

Even the rogue at 8 skill points can not meet its basic skills without a high intelligence modifier. Hide, MS, spot, listen, search, disable device, open lock, slight of hand. Thats the 9 skills/level that a human rogue gets. No room for climb, bluff, tumble, balance, intimidate, knowledge: local, etc.

Powergaming is specialization. You shouldnt be able to take all those every level and max them out. Rogues are for the ability to perform a number of functions, but they shouldnt get to do EVERYTHING. I mean sheesh. take tumble, dont take spot. you dont need to have everything maxed out - and if you want to powergame like that, being bad in other areas is a decent way to balance it out.

i guess i'm against the majority here
i'm all for combining some skills, and think the 2skill/level classes need a bump
but i think the rogue has enough skill points already

Most classes are skill starved because they have none. Rogues are skill starved because they think they should be great at them all.

YAY! Herehere. The rogue has enough. You shouldnt be able to have EVERYTHING at max ranks. you want to be more diverse, fine spread the points out since you have so many. you want to specialize specialize. Not every rogue needs those skills. when I make rogues (most levels in rogue), I never take disable device/open lock (to my groups horror as they never figure out I make combat rogues who are like faster swashbucklers) ( I usually take a couple levels in swashbuckler to toughen him up later and to get that int to damage)

Here's what I got. It might be longer than the ones you guys have, but I dont have the 3.5 players so I started with the expanded skill list on the 4 page character sheet. Some of these won't apply to every game.

Appraise, Autohypnosis, Agility (Balance & Tumble), Bluff, Climb, Craft, Decipher Script, Forgery, Diplomacy, Disable Device (Disable Device & Open Lock), Disguise, Escape Artist, Gather InfoMake the PC get off their ass and use bluff/diplomacy, Handle Animal, Heal, Stealth (Hide/Move Silently), Intimidate, Jump, Know. Arcana, Know. Engineering, Know. Dungeoneering, Know. Geography, Know. History, Know. local this one is useless if you move, and spending points in every area is ridiculous. scrap it., Know. Nature, Know. Nobility, Know. The Planes, Know. Psionics, Know. Religion, Listen, Perform (Leave all these, theyre fine), Profession: Anythign that could be a craft and a profession is just a craft. so blacksmiths dont have ranks in the profession, just the craft. PSICraft and spellcraft use knowledge skills but need a class that can use psicraft or spellcraft for those uses., ride, search/spot (use wis to spot and int to search), sense motive, sleight of hand, survival, swim, tumble, UMD/UPD combined, Use Rope.
Thats probably about as much as I'd condense it. Actually I'd add Pilot (Air), Pilot (Water), Navigate - We have airship campaigns and sea campaigns, so these are useful.