Half-Celestial question

[Macgyvercas]

Okay, so I'm making some characters just for fun (mainly so I can have them fight to the death). Both are 20th level, and one is a Half-Celestial, and the other is a Half-Fiend. What I'm curious is how to apply the template.

Simply put, do I apply the template to a level 1 character and level them up from there, or do I put it on a level 20 character. For the Half-Celestial, I'm making a level 20 Paladin (assuming my knowledge of LA is correct, it would be treated as a 24th level character, I think). So How do I go about doing the Half-Celestial skill points and ability mods?

Any help would be great.

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

Effective Character Level = Template level adjustments plus Class levels.

So, 4 level template + 20 levels Paladin, yup, you got it!

If you're making the character as a 24th level at the get-go, it doesn't matter where you put it. If you're leveling up from a starting character, you'd have an ECL 5 Half-Celestial with one level of Paladin, and go from there.

Have fun, sounds like a good match to watch, I hope there is cool RP dialogue!

 

[Macgyvercas]

Effective Character Level = Template level adjustments plus Class levels.

So, 4 level template + 20 levels Paladin, yup, you got it!

If you're making the character as a 24th level at the get-go, it doesn't matter where you put it. If you're leveling up from a starting character, you'd have an ECL 5 Half-Celestial with one level of Paladin, and go from there.

Have fun, sounds like a good match to watch, I hope there is cool RP dialogue!

So, in other words, starting from Level 1, he'd start out with skill points equal to an outsider (8+Int mod * 3 + HD, quadrupled for first level), plus the skill points of a Paladin? The skill points were what was throwing me.

And I hope this will be fun. The Half-Fiend's story is going to take some work due to alignment issues, but there are ways around that (Fallen Paladin 10/Blackguard 10, anyone?). I was thinking have his evil alignment changed to Lawful Good at creation due to the Deck of Many Things, and then succumb back to evil later.

 

[Rampant]

Ok see the character would never get 8+int skills, the half-fiend and celestial templates modify racial HD to match outsider HD more closely, but they do not directly effect class HD from paladin or blackgaurd. Changes such as those from ability score increases however still apply, as do those powers that are part of being a native outsider that aren't reliant on HD (visions, spell and bane vulnerabilities/immunities).

Furthermore why get so complicated with the blackgaurd? just play him as a fallen pally. Why two heel face turns when one would suffice?

 

[Dandu]

Perhaps he is dancing the Xanatos Roulette?

 

[Rampant]

Xanatos roulette is about near omniscient capability to accurately predict and plan around one of the least likely outcomes of an event and still be right.

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

So, in other words, starting from Level 1, he'd start out with skill points equal to an outsider (8+Int mod * 3 + HD, quadrupled for first level), plus the skill points of a Paladin? The skill points were what was throwing me.

Understand the difference between a racial template and a race. Templates provide no Hit dice, and therefore no skill points, no feats, no saves, etc. Templates add extra abilities onto a basic race.

Because of the Race template, you'll never be a level 1 character. You come out at birth effectively with 4 levels worth of power, but without a class, you technically have no hitpoints.
Yeah, doesn't make sense from a reality standpoint, but we're not talking reality, we're talking game mechanics.
When you start at your first level of your class, you're effectively a level 5 character. A Half-Celestial, Paladin-level-1 stands next to a human Paladin-level-1 and the Half Celestial is stronger. he's 4-levels-more stronger. In theory then, a Half-Celestial Paladin-level-1 could stand next to a Human Paladin-level-5 would effectively be equals. The human would have more hitpoints and saves, but the Half-celestial would have a number of abilities for this racial template that make up for it. At least in the theory of game mechanics.

And I hope this will be fun. The Half-Fiend's story is going to take some work due to alignment issues, but there are ways around that (Fallen Paladin 10/Blackguard 10, anyone?). I was thinking have his evil alignment changed to Lawful Good at creation due to the Deck of Many Things, and then succumb back to evil later.

Note the Blackguard Prestige Class entry on fallen Paladins. You may literally trade Paladin levels for levels in the PrC. Because of this, a level 20 Blackguard need not ever have class levels in Paladin, those class levels have been obsorbed and transformed into the Blackguard PrC. See the Epic Blackguard progression for this.

 

[Rampant]

No, you can't gain epic blackgaurd levels until after you reach 20 HD, and it doesn't switch to the epic progression till level 11 of blackgaurd.

So a 20th level pally who falls can trade ten levels of pally for 10 of blackgaurd but the other ten levels are there forever since the trade can only be made once. That's why the designers give bonus abilities to blackgaurds with left-over ex-paladin levels.

 

[Macgyvercas]

Understand the difference between a racial template and a race. Templates provide no Hit dice, and therefore no skill points, no feats, no saves, etc. Templates add extra abilities onto a basic race.

Because of the Race template, you'll never be a level 1 character. You come out at birth effectively with 4 levels worth of power, but without a class, you technically have no hitpoints.
Yeah, doesn't make sense from a reality standpoint, but we're not talking reality, we're talking game mechanics.
When you start at your first level of your class, you're effectively a level 5 character. A Half-Celestial, Paladin-level-1 stands next to a human Paladin-level-1 and the Half Celestial is stronger. he's 4-levels-more stronger. In theory then, a Half-Celestial Paladin-level-1 could stand next to a Human Paladin-level-5 would effectively be equals. The human would have more hitpoints and saves, but the Half-celestial would have a number of abilities for this racial template that make up for it. At least in the theory of game mechanics.



Note the Blackguard Prestige Class entry on fallen Paladins. You may literally trade Paladin levels for levels in the PrC. Because of this, a level 20 Blackguard need not ever have class levels in Paladin, those class levels have been obsorbed and transformed into the Blackguard PrC. See the Epic Blackguard progression for this.

From the SRD:

Skills: A half-celestial gains skill points as an outsider and has skill points equal to (8 + Int modifier) x (HD + 3). Do not include Hit Dice from class levels in this calculation—the half-celestial gains outsider skill points only for its racial Hit Dice, and gains the normal amount of skill points for its class levels. Treat skills from the base creature’s list as class skills, and other skills as cross-class.

This is what I'm confused about. A level 1 Paladin with Human as the base creature, taking this mess into account. Any help, please?

And isn't Blackguard a prestige class with only ten levels?

 

[Rampant]

gains normal amount of skill points for class levels

it says so right there, paladin is a class to therefore you get the normal amount of skill points when you take levels in it

A level one human pally half celestial is ECL five, but has a grand total of one HD from his paladin level so it is created in much the same manner as a first level pally with the obvious benefits of qualifying for more feats, and getting all the various improvements from the template.

Also like I said you can't go black guard 11 until you get your 21st hit die. There's a progression for epic level blackgaurds but it doesn't come into play at the level you're talking about.