Half-Dwarves

[Technik4]

I was thinking along those lines. I was thinking the best way to limit half-elves (and half-dwarves) was to make the feat a "racial" feat only. Like the ones from Forgotten Realms, or essentially any non-combat, non-magic feat. This would make them about as poweful as a first level human.

Consider that a first level human gets 4 bonus skill points and the half-elf only gets 3 racial bonus skill points. By 3rd level the human could have gotten the exact same skills at cross-class costs (or twice the bonus if they are all class skills, like a rogue). All other skill points (up to 17 more) are gravy for humans.

I dont think blood or languages will significantly alter the "power" of a race, and add in some general anti-sentiment towards half or bastard races (ala Dragonlance) and you have lots of reasons someone would rather be a human.

Technik

 

[Chun-tzu]

I was thinking along those lines. I was thinking the best way to limit half-elves (and half-dwarves) was to make the feat a "racial" feat only. Like the ones from Forgotten Realms, or essentially any non-combat, non-magic feat. This would make them about as poweful as a first level human.

Yeah, that's much more balanced, although I still think it's a little too powerful. If you restricted it to the FRCS regional feats listed for elves and dwarves, that would be fine in my book. But feats like Alertness, Endurance, and especially Skill Focus are often taken to qualify for prestige classes, and this would take away some of that cost to qualify for those classes. So, it should be narrowed a little more, to counter the munchkin potential, but I'd agree it's ECL 0 as is.

 

[drdevoid]

People will always play humans

This is largely a synthesis of what has already been said. Technik4 may have cleanly nailed it already though.

Half-Dwarf

+2 Str, -2 Dex, +2 Con, -2 Cha
-Base Speed 20 ft.
-Darkvision 30'
- +2 save against Spells and Spell-like effects
- +2 save against Poison
- +1 racial bonus to Appraise, Craft, or Profession checks relating to stone or metal
- Dwarven Blood
- Automatic Languages: Common and Dwarven
- Bonus Languages: Any
- Favored Class: Any

While possibly the rarest of crossbreeds due to such a low birth rate, they are also some of the most impressive and feared warriors on the battlefield. Half-Dwarves are hearty and muscle bound which makes them slower and not as nimble as their human parents. Their exotic lineage also makes them a retiring lot. Taller and only slighly heavier than their Dwarven parent, the average height of a half-dwarf is 5 - 5 and a half feet and an average weight of 150 - 300 pounds.

They are shunned by most Dwarven races as being overground versions of Derros, despite bearing no resemblence at all. Many insults involve their poorer eyesight, inability to "hit the broad side of an orc" and alleged sun worship. The Derro, on the otherhand, love Half-Dwarf slaves for their personal servants finding their appearance, "almost tolerable".

NOTES: I was toying with -4 Cha or Dex or giving back the 60' Darkvision or changing the favored class to fighter, I'm just not sure. Is ditching the giant-dodging, orc- and goblin-bashing, better appraise, better darkvision and stonecunning abilities equivalent to getting an (almost) balanced Strength and Constitution bonus? My half-dwarf also don't seem too human, but than again neither do half-elves or half-orcs. So the question becomes which crossbreed the most aloof or gruff, huh.

Your thoughts and criticisms unless (I'm the threadkiller),
Joe Sullivan
"The Moronic Fighter"

 

[Cheiromancer]

Very nicely done. I think it is just about perfect the way it is.

 

[Technik4]

I like your version drdevoid just a few comments. Darkvision 30ft? Half-elves get full bonus to vision, I would up your half-dwarf's.

Where does the extra strength come from? This makes it seem like a half-dwarf is as hardy as a dwarf, but stronger. Maybe you could hearken back to the old dwarves and give them +2 Con, -2 Dex. They get the charisma back for mixing with humans, but somewhere in the weight distribution they lose some finesse.

I could go either way with Favored Class: Fighter. Also, since they are outcasts (loners) they may be good for fav class Ranger. All you need to add is the flavor then.

I think I prefer them without attribute modifiers personally, just because dwarves didnt have all that great modifiers to begin with (like elves and half-elves). In the case of the half-orc, I think its more of a twisted union, causing the abiltiy modifiers of the parents to mix harshly instead of nicely.

Technik

 

[drdevoid]

I was just basing the mods off the Derro (+2 Str, -2 Dex, +2 Con, -4 Cha) which is also where the Darkvision 30ft. came from, and at least one way to keep the half-orc (which I feel needs something- scent perhaps?) and dwarf still viable. Derro, as far as understand it, are the original half-dwarves but something went terribly wrong . . .

In the first half of this thread the strength mod was mentioned, I think the logic being used before is that since they are only medium size by dint of bulk, you make them taller and it's a really strong near human. I think the strength mod is too powerful, but I just don't like the idea of giving them a bonus feat, even a racial one. That's the only reason that I would play a human, despite my title earlier.

Anyway, just an (unsuccessful) attempt at synthesizing the two ideas in this thread. I'm off to take a final I can't possibly pass! Perhaps I'll try again later.

Thanks,
Joe Sullivan

 

[MissingDividends]

my new one, keep the changes commin

I thank you all for your imput (keep it comming), this is the modified version (so far)

The Half-Dwarf:

Personality: The personality of a Half-Dwarf is much similar to that of a Dwarf. They are not quite as suspicious of strangers, yet they have a much better sense of humor.

Physical Description: Half-Dwarves stand about 5 feet tall, and are much like a larger version of a Dwarf. Half-Dwarves are considered an adult at the age of 35, and live to be about 250 years old. Half-dwarf males value their beard just as dwarfs, but spend less time fussing about it. Half-Dwarves have a longer upper body than dwarves, and shorter legs than humans.

Alignment: Half-Dwarves tend to be a lawful alignment, but there is no tendency towards god over evil, but neutrality is common.

Religion: Half-Dwarves tend to worship Wee Jas.

Languages: Half-Dwarves speak Dwarven and common. In addition, they tend to learn a variety of languages.

Names: A Half-Dwarf’s name has almost a sacred meaning; they usually have 2 names one from the Dwarven parent and one for the human.

Half-Dwarven Racial Traits:
- +2 Constitution, +2 Strength, -2 Charisma, -2 Dex
- Medium sized
- Base speed is 20 feet
- Dwarven Blood
- +2 racial saving throw against poisons
- +2 racial bonus to appraise relating to metal, stone, or exotic materials
- +2 racial bonus to craft checks related to stone or metal
- Bonus Racial Feat at first Level
- Favored Class Cleric***


***This is mainly because it fits my campagin(we need clerics) and there is no race with a favored class of cleric (except the ones with "any"

 

[drdevoid]

MissingDividends,

While Wee Jas is the best example I can think of for a patron deity in the standard D&D pantheon, it still seems a little odd. The main connection is the D&Dg (pg. 96) reference to some worshipers insisting Wee Jas favors the creation of magic items. This ties to the two racial traditions together somewhat (the forging of weapons and an openess to magic), but if the favored class is Cleric that leads to Necromantic clerics and sages of arcane lore. Isn't that a little too far removed from the Dwarven distaste for magic (specifically necromancy)?

I didn't see anything more suitable in MoP (there are a couple of places where they list the courts of the deities from which you could pick out another deity) but I may have missed it. I would think a Dwarven equivalent to Ehlonna would be good, or maybe something from FRCS or Hammer & Helm. Perhaps a more lawful form of Kord? I definitely think you'd want a deity with the Strength Domain (the granted power allows you to add your cleric level to a single feat of strength each day) with those kind of modifiers.

Just my 2¢,
Joe Sullivan

 

[MissingDividends]

deifatly worth considering, i just included wee jas because it was from the players handbook (something that everybody has...well should have) and it was the best one in there (seeing how their favored class is cleric....i might change that...i though i should give some deity), i spent about 20 minutes on the original but as it develops ill defenitly consider changeing the religon. Clangeddin Silverbeard (Lawfull Good) , Berronar Truesilver (lawfull Good), and Laduguer (lawfull Evil) all from Faiths and Pantheons or Forgotten Realms(they r in both)would also be good choices.

 

[Technik4]

Um

MissingDividends: Your version seems overpowered to me. Bonuses to con and str (esp str!! look what the half-orc loses to get JUST the +2 str) with negs to dex and cha are not balanced. The dex and the con cancel out, but the str and the cha definitely DONT. I would halve the skill bonuses (as half-elf) but leave the saving throw bonuses.

And, not so much a rant about your half-dwarves but about Favored Class: Cleric. The reason I believe this is such a rare favored class is because inherently in any race there will be many clerics. Most societies wouldnt thrive without religion, and clerics are an important part to the Elf, Dwarf, and Human races. Finally, a race with a Charisma negative would hardly have a fav class of cleric, it is keyed to some of their abilities.

Finally, I would say one has to choose one or the other between stats and the racial feat. There is *1* race I know of that gets a bonus feat and racial bonuses that is usually chosen as pcs, and that is a halfling subrace from FRCS. Other than that, it doesnt happen, and that particular subrace lost the +1 bonus to all saving throws (which, is basically a feat's worth of abilites). Also, you denied them any sort of vision bonus, I think at least 30ft as DrDevoid suggested, but I personally would give them 60ft as regular dwarves have.

Technik