Half elf "Versatile Master" Feat Rogue Question

[Istar]

Wont all rogues now be Half Elf's.

Wont everyone then get "Twin Strike" as an at will from Ranger (Give up Deft Strike)

And double your attacks (I know SA only once).

But if you also go Daggermaster, and pick all the crit feats, and powers with special crit features.

This must be the most optimized Race / PP by far ???????

Can anyone counter that ?

 

[boolean]

Half-Elves don't get a Dexterity bonus so, most of the time, they aren't as good at being a Rogue as a Halfling or Drow. The hit a little less often, do a little less damage, and have a little worse AC and Reflex defenses. (Plus, worse Acrobatics, Stealth, and Thievery.)

After they hit Paragon they could take Versatile Master and gain Twin Strike as an at-will, but if they're using it for melee attacks they now need a good strength score as well (and Half-Elves don't get a bonus there either), or they're using it for ranged attacks, which makes it somewhat harder to gain combat advantage.

So, a Half-Elf now has some substantial advantages, but it has enough drawbacks to make it balanced.

 

[Byronic]

That's nothing, I found this build online:

Concept: Sakura Rush
Race: Eladrin
Class: Rogue (Brutal Dodger)
Paragon Path: Kensei

Ability Scores:
Level 1: Str 14, Con 10, Dex 20, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 10
Level 4: Str 15, Con 10, Dex 21, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 10
Level 8: Str 16, Con 10, Dex 22, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 10
Level 11: Str 17, Con 11, Dex 23, Int 11, Wis 12, Cha 11
Level 14: Str 18, Con 11, Dex 24, Int 11, Wis 12, Cha 11

Feats:
Level 1: Melee Training (Dexterity)
Level 2: Backstabber
Level 4: Weapon Expertise (light blades)
Level 6: Nimble Blade
Level 8: Weapon Focus (light blades) => retrained into Fey Gambit at Level 11
Level 10: Student of the Sword
Level 11: Fey Charge, Weapon Focus is retrained into Fey Gambit
Level 12: Weapon Focus (Light Blades)
Level 14: Surprising Charge
Level 16: Powerful Charge

At level 1, you can charge and use Dexterity instead of Strength for the attack and damage rolls for the melee basic attack, whoop-dee-ing-doo.

At level 11, you can charge an enemy, replacing up to 5 squares of movement with Fey Step, gaining Combat Advantage against the target, and if you hit, your Fey Step isn't expended. With a +2 Vanguard Dagger, your attack bonus for charging should be 5 half level + 6 Dex mod + 2 enhancement + 3 proficiency + 1 Rogue Weapon Talent + 1 Weapon Expertise + 1 Kensei + 2 Combat Advantage + 1 Nimble Blade + 1 charging = +23. The average AC of a level 11 monster is 11 + 14 = 25, so you hit on a 2+. Your damage on a charge is 1d4 dagger + 6 Dex mod + 3 Str mod + 2 enhancement + 2 Bracers of Mighty Striking + 1d8 Vanguard + 3d8 Sneak Attack + 1d6 Horned Helm = 1d4+1d6+4d8+13 (average 37).

Level 16, like any build, is where gets real. Your attack bonus with a +3 Vanguard Dagger should be 8 half level + 7 Dex mod + 3 enhancement + 3 proficiency + 1 Rogue Weapon Talent + 2 Weapon Expertise + 1 Kensei + 2 Combat Advantage + 1 Nimble Blade + 1 charging = +29. Average AC of a level 16 monster = 16 + 14 = 30. Your damage should be 1d4 dagger + 7 Dex mod + 4 Str mod + 3 enhancement + 2 Bracers of Mighty Striking + 2 Weapon Focus + 2 Powerful Charge + 4 Kensei + 1d4 Surprising Charge + 1d8 Vanguard + 3d8 Sneak Attack + 1d6 Horned Helm = 2d4+1d6+4d8+24 (average 50.5).

If I was going for sheer power I'd rather do the above build then that Half Elf build. Almost always having Sneak Attack and hitting 19 times out of 20 seems more of an advantage.

It kinda reminds me of a Harlequin build I wanted to make a while ago, but it needed the Melee Training skill that wasn't known back then. And I must admit wasn't half as deadly since I went more for fun and theme then the death dealer above.

 

[MrMyth]

That's nothing, I found this build online:

If I was going for sheer power I'd rather do the above build then that Half Elf build. Almost always having Sneak Attack and hitting 19 times out of 20 seems more of an advantage.

It kinda reminds me of a Harlequin build I wanted to make a while ago, but it needed the Melee Training skill that wasn't known back then. And I must admit wasn't half as deadly since I went more for fun and theme then the death dealer above.

I played almost this exact build in a one-shot right after Martial Power came out, and it was extremely fun. The only weakness - then - was only hitting on a 6+ or so; Weapon Expertise and Martial Training easily solve that.

Another good addition to it is Roundabout Charge, which lets you charge an adjacent enemy (by charging from one side of him to the opposite side; using Fey Step to avoid OAs on the way.)

Honestly, I like it more for the sheer absurd flavor and concept than the power... but the power is nice too!

Anyway, Versatile Master is all sorts of awesome, but I don't think it will completely break the system - I think it makes Half-Elves suddenly quite viable, and makes a lot of off-kilter builds much more playable, and that's only going to be a good thing.

 

[Josep]

The posted Fey-Charger build has a few weaknesses: It relies on melee and charging, neither of which are always the easiest to do (especially if you also want to gain combat advantage).

Secondly, as I read it, it doesn't give DPR. The rogue typically has 75% odds to hit (possibly 80% with charge), which reduces the DPR by a bit (37 * 80% = 29.6). In contrast, the bloodiron daggermaster half-elf rogue on the char-opt boards is doing damage of around 40DPR at 11th.

So the half-elf appears quite a bit more flexible with both melee and ranged options, as well as having lots of additional custimizations.

To the OP: I'm not clear that the half-elf daggermaster beats an optimized stormwarden, but I think it's right up there from everything I've seen.

 

[Byronic]

The posted Fey-Charger build has a few weaknesses: It relies on melee and charging, neither of which are always the easiest to do (especially if you also want to gain combat advantage).

Secondly, as I read it, it doesn't give DPR. The rogue typically has 75% odds to hit (possibly 80% with charge), which reduces the DPR by a bit (37 * 80% = 29.6). In contrast, the bloodiron daggermaster half-elf rogue on the char-opt boards is doing damage of around 40DPR at 11th.

So the half-elf appears quite a bit more flexible with both melee and ranged options, as well as having lots of additional custimizations.

To the OP: I'm not clear that the half-elf daggermaster beats an optimized stormwarden, but I think it's right up there from everything I've seen.

Actually as I see it charging would automatically give you combat advantage if you used your feystep (the feat Fey Gambit). Which you can do repeatedly with this build until you miss. And considering you hit the average monster of your level with a 2, you're going to be hitting for quite a while, killing most monsters in 3-4 turns (minions, Elite's and Solo's not included of course)

 

[Josep]

Actually as I see it charging would automatically give you combat advantage if you used your feystep (the feat Fey Gambit). Which you can do repeatedly with this build until you miss. And considering you hit the average monster of your level with a 2, you're going to be hitting for quite a while, killing most monsters in 3-4 turns (minions, Elite's and Solo's not included of course)

Ah, you're right. I didn't read the build carefully enough.

 

[deleteme123456]

Do you have a backup plan in case you crit-fail and expend Fey Step, or use it against an Elite or Solo, or worse yet, an above-level Elite/Solo Soldier, running 4-8 AC higher than the norm, now giving you an additional 20-40% miss chance?

I'm a little skeptical of a 40 DPR @ 11th build not being overpowered, but there are ranger builds that are near there / catch up around 16th with Stormwarden or Kensai, so the precedent is there. The half-elf daggermaster is also fairly impotent during heroic teir; not overly so but he's not really very good at anything either. His 40 DPR also assume you will get CA 100% of the time, and I'm willing to go as high at 90-95%, but that's not 100% for sure.

Of course, the ranger builds typically use bloodclaw and reckless, which is a) dangerous and b) at least a possible candidate for errata, whereas bloodiron seems unlikely to be errated anytime soon.

And who knows, there may very well be some other ridiculous feat that kicks rangers' DPR up a little more.

 

[Byronic]

Do you have a backup plan in case you crit-fail and expend Fey Step, or use it against an Elite or Solo, or worse yet, an above-level Elite/Solo Soldier, running 4-8 AC higher than the norm, now giving you an additional 20-40% miss chance?

Well, I would say use old fashioned flanking when fighting someone after you fail. But in any case by the time it fails you've usually caused a rather large amount of damage which is the whole point of being a striker.

And it's still a rather fun build.