Half-Ogre Lasher, TWF, and other stories

[andargor]

I have a few rule questions concerning an ECL 10 Half-Ogre Lasher using TWF. First, Here's the build:

Abilities rolled: 12,13,14,14,14,17 (house rule: may move numbers to any stat, may move up to 3 points from one stat to another)

Lasher Brute, Male Half-Ogre Fighter5 Lasher4 CR 9; LA: +1; Size: L Type GIANT; HD (5d10)+(4d10)+27; hp 85; Init +5 (+5 Dex, +0 Misc); Spd Walk 30'; AC 26 (flatfooted 21, touch 15); BAB +9/+4; *Whip +3 (+4 Mighty/Dagger/Medium) +15/+10 15'/S (1d8+11 19-20/x2 Primary M ) or *Whip (+4 Mighty/Dagger) +12/+7 15'/S (1d6+8 19-20/x2 Off-hand S ); SA: Close combat, Crack of fate, Lashing whip, Third hand, Whip lash, Whip sneak attack +1d6, Wound; Vision: Darkvision (60'), Normal AL: LN; Sv: Fort +11, Ref +13, Will +7; Str 18, Dex 20, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 8

Skills and Feats: Balance +11, Craft (Leatherworking) +3, Jump +20, Spot +5, Tumble +10, Use Rope +7; Ambidexterity, Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Large and In Charge, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Whip), Weapon Specialization (Whip)

Possessions: Boots of Striding and Springing, Brooch of Shielding, Chain Shirt +3 (Mithral/Large), Cloak of Resistance +3, Ring of Protection +1, Whip (+4 Mighty/Dagger), Whip +3 (+4 Mighty/Dagger/Medium)

Here are the questions:

- The maximum distance the Lasher can hit an opponent is 20'? (10' reach, Whip is 15' range, so I assume a Medium character could hit someone at 15', whereas a Large character could reach 20')

- The whip is considered a ranged weapon, so DEX is used to determine the to hit bonus? Kinda weird...

- Is this still true if an opponent is within the lasher's reach (10'), or only if the opponent is 15' or 20' away? The "Close Combat" special ability mentions that the Lasher does not provoke AoOs when using the Whip if within a threatened square (since it's a ranged weapon), so is the weapon considered a melee weapon in that circumstance (STR bonus to hit), or always a ranged weapon (DEX bonus to hit)?

- The special ability "Whip Lash" allows the Lasher to make AoOs against foes "within 5 feet". Wouldn't a Half-Ogre Lasher be able to make AoOs within it's reach (10')?

- The "Improved Trip" description mentions "melee attacks". Since the Whip is a ranged weapon, but specifically mentionned in the Lasher description as being able to make Trip attacks, the distinction between ranged and melee types is again blurred for the Whip...

- Can TWF and ITWF be used with Whips? They are ranged weapons, but they seem to be pseudo-melee for the Lasher...

- Again, can Large and In Charge work with a Whip?

- The "Crack of Fate" special ability allows one extra attack at the highest attack bonus, but at -2 to all attacks (full attack action). So this Lasher's full attack routine would be PH:+13, +13, +8 OH:+10?

- If the Lasher were hasted, in addition to his full attack routine, could he use Crack of Fate again in the same round, and attack at +13, +13?

Thanks!

Andargor

 

[Pax]

Well, the problem there is, TWF only works with melee weapons.

Whips aren't melee weapons, they're ranged. You can use PBS and Rapid Shot with a whip, but not TWF.

- The maximum distance the Lasher can hit an opponent is 20'? (10' reach, Whip is 15' range, so I assume a Medium character could hit someone at 15', whereas a Large character could reach 20')

Presuming the character is wielding whips one size category higher, the range increases by 25% -- or, abut 4'. Clsoe enough to call it 20', I guess.

The damage increases to 1d2 (1d8 for whip dagger).

Note however, as a Half-Ogre, you could wield LARGE whips one-handed, so you could get +50% range (20' or 25', that'd be a DM call), and damage of 1d3 (whip) or 2d6 (whip-dagger).

That would also make Disarms more efficient; nice side benefit, that, IMO.

- The whip is considered a ranged weapon, so DEX is used to determine the to hit bonus? Kinda weird...

I've used a whi[p before (I'm no expert, but I've used one). Makes perfect sense to me; essentially, you're "throwing" the tip of the whip at your target ...

- Is this still true if an opponent is within the lasher's reach (10'), or only if the opponent is 15' or 20' away? The "Close Combat" special ability mentions that the Lasher does not provoke AoOs when using the Whip if within a threatened square (since it's a ranged weapon), so is the weapon considered a melee weapon in that circumstance (STR bonus to hit), or always a ranged weapon (DEX bonus to hit)?

A whip is always a ranged weapon. Period. No exceptions.

- The special ability "Whip Lash" allows the Lasher to make AoOs against foes "within 5 feet". Wouldn't a Half-Ogre Lasher be able to make AoOs within it's reach (10')?

This isn't specified in the rules, but, I would tend to rule that way, IMC. So -- by th book, no. Logically, yes. Whip Lash shoudl IMO be rewqorded to say "within the Lasher's natural, unarmed reach".

- The "Improved Trip" description mentions "melee attacks". Since the Whip is a ranged weapon, but specifically mentionned in the Lasher description as being able to make Trip attacks, the distinction between ranged and melee types is again blurred for the Whip...

Such is the wonderful world of D&D. The whip is the proverbial "exception that proves the rule" -- a ranged weapon that can perform trips.

And disarms, in fact.

- Can TWF and ITWF be used with Whips? They are ranged weapons, but they seem to be pseudo-melee for the Lasher...

No. Use Rapid Shot instead.

- Again, can Large and In Charge work with a Whip?

For a non-Lasher -- no; the wielder wouldn't get AoOs.

For a Lasher ... see your question regarding Whip Lash, above. IOW: GM call.

- The "Crack of Fate" special ability allows one extra attack at the highest attack bonus, but at -2 to all attacks (full attack action). So this Lasher's full attack routine would be PH:+13, +13, +8 OH:+10?

No offhand attack, just +13/+13/+8. However, you could combine that with Rapid Shot, and get +11/+11/+11/+6. Rather like a Monk with Lightning Fists, to an extent.

- If the Lasher were hasted, in addition to his full attack routine, could he use Crack of Fate again in the same round, and attack at +13, +13?

No. Haste (3.0E) provides a PARTIAL action, and you cannot make a full attack as a partial action. Full Attacks are Full-Round actions.

If that lasher was hasted, they could make a SINGLE additional attack (at +15, I believe).

Thanks!

Andargor

NP. Lasher is a cool PrC, withlots of style, and not over-the-top in resultant power. Have fun with the character!

I strongly suggest a whip-dagger, and since you're a half-ogre,a MIGHTY (+3 or +4) whip-dagger seems in order, by the way.

I also recommend you increase the weapon by two sizes (standard Whips and Whip-daggers are Small weapons). You'll get a 2d6 Whip Dagger with a range of 20' or 25' (it calculated to 22.5', so, it depends how nice your GM wants to be), which no smaller characetr could effectively wield against you.

And for disarms (DO get improved disarm!), a Large weapon is always better than a Small weapon!

 

[andargor]

Well, the problem there is, TWF only works with melee weapons.

Whips aren't melee weapons, they're ranged. You can use PBS and Rapid Shot with a whip, but not TWF.

Hmmm... Wouldn't a character be allowed, say, to throw two daggers, one with each hand?

As for weapon size, the stock Whip is size Small. I've just increased the size by one step (Medium). So you're saying I could increase it all the way to Large? Neato.

Andargor

 

[Crothian]

Hmmm... Wouldn't a character be allowed, say, to throw two daggers, one with each hand?

One can use the combat option of fighting with two weapons with ranged attacks but the feat two weapon fighting does not apply to it. So, at best you would be -4/-4 assuming one has the ambedixterity feats.

 

[hammymchamham]

Hmmm... Wouldn't a character be allowed, say, to throw two daggers, one with each hand?

Yes, just as a wizard would be allowed to wear full plate and a tower shield. Granted the arcane spell failure would be ridiculous, and without the proper feats an insane penalty to attack rolls (due to the armor check penalty).

And no different than a Barbarian without the exotic weapon profic. in Mercurial Great sword weilding one. Of course, the penalty would be ridiculous at -7

 

[melkoriii]

Hmmm... Wouldn't a character be allowed, say, to throw two daggers, one with each hand?

As for weapon size, the stock Whip is size Small. I've just increased the size by one step (Medium). So you're saying I could increase it all the way to Large? Neato.

Andargor

No Medium is what you want.

Range weapons are not like melee weapons.

A Whip can not effectivly be weilded 2 handed.

Its the same as takeing a light crossbow (small, 1d8)
and making it Large (Large, 2d8)

Reach is +5 per size increase so your 1/2 Ogre would have range of 20' with a Medium Whip.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Whip Lash shoudl IMO be rewqorded to say "within the Lasher's natural, unarmed reach".

5' is consistent with a feat like Whirlwind Attack - even if you have an inclusive reach of 100' (say, a Kraken Fighter making a Whirlwind Attack with a tentacle), you can only hit targets within 5'.

-Hyp.

 

[melkoriii]

5' is consistent with a feat like Whirlwind Attack - even if you have an inclusive reach of 100' (say, a Kraken Fighter making a Whirlwind Attack with a tentacle), you can only hit targets within 5'.

-Hyp.

So if a Fighter with WW uses a Long Spear, What happens when he does a WW attack?

 

[andargor]

5' is consistent with a feat like Whirlwind Attack - even if you have an inclusive reach of 100' (say, a Kraken Fighter making a Whirlwind Attack with a tentacle), you can only hit targets within 5'.

-Hyp.

Whip Lash is only related to AoOs. The Kraken Fighter gets AoOs within 100'. If it grabs a whip with a tentacle (if that's possible), it should still be able to make AoOs within 100'.

Andargor

 

[Hypersmurf]

So if a Fighter with WW uses a Long Spear, What happens when he does a WW attack?

He can't hit anything.

Weapon Masters who use Reach Weapons waste a class ability, because their Ki Whirlwind only works with their weapon of choice, and WWA doesn't work with Reach Weapons.

I believe there's an Epic Feat that fixes it.

-Hyp.