half-ogre

[Spatzimaus]

Yeah, as written it should easily be a +2. If you make the character to take advantage of that 10' reach, you can get a REALLY scary fighter.

That being said, IMC we made the Half-Ogre a base race long before Savage Species came out. We ended up with an ECL 0 race with no extended reach, although we had an alternate ECL +1 version with reach, but it was substantially weaker than the SS Half-Ogre. So, we took one look at the "official" Half-Ogre, said "overpowered!", and went back to using our custom one.

 

[Spatula]

Doesn't magic armor resize to the size of wearer?

Yes. And non-magical armor is 2x the cost, not 4x.

IMO +6 str and 10' reach with the penalties is worth more than +1 ECL. Toss in the +4 natural armor, +2 Can and darkvision and its think its really over the top.

Not the mention the ability to use larger, more damaging weapons, and the bonuses to various combat maneuvers.

 

[Hardhead]

I also played one in a campaign a friend ran for about two months. I told him it was unbalanced, but he said that since WotC publsihed it, it must be balanced (oh, the naiveté!)

I found it imensely powerful, and he came around after seeing what my character was capable of.

 

[Lord Ben]

I believe in 3.5 it'll only change to fit the wearer across size boundries. IE, large platemail will fit all large creatures, but you can't make pixie sized platemail and give it to an ogre and expect it to resize. At least that's what I assumed. The 2x, 4x cost was wrong, I was going off the top of my head. As a bonus though my Ogre now has studded leather instead of leather I guess.

I stand by my point anyhow, I don't feel any more powerful being a Half-Ogre Bbn1 compared to a Half-Orc Bbn1. I feel a bit vulnerable, my feats, HP, ability raises, etc are all lowered, in order to get a decent AC I need to wear heavier armor due to the -2 dex, and goblins still scare the poop out of me. Cripes, against Alchemist Fires my AC is a measly 10! Maybe a 14th level Half-Ogre is way better then a 15th level normal character, but going by level 1-2 where I'm playing it's perfectly fine to me. Sure, everything I hit dies - but that's my only benefit.

 

[Technik4]

The numbers seem to indicate it's overpowered, but if you actually play one it's not that different.

I think you meant "...its different", so I'll go with that. While you do have some restrictions, what is your strength? You mention not having enough dex for combat reflexes, would you mind posting your character? How do you play out in combat? I've seen half-orc barbarians slice and dice through what were supposed to be "hardy" NPCs, I imagine you are even more so.

Despite finding it difficult to find armor sized for you, you do have a +4 (!) natural armor bonus? Do you have one of the higher ACs for the group (not counting buffed clerics and wizards).

Technik

 

[DM_Matt]

I believe in 3.5 it'll only change to fit the wearer across size boundries. IE, large platemail will fit all large creatures, but you can't make pixie sized platemail and give it to an ogre and expect it to resize. At least that's what I assumed. The 2x, 4x cost was wrong, I was going off the top of my head. As a bonus though my Ogre now has studded leather instead of leather I guess.

I stand by my point anyhow, I don't feel any more powerful being a Half-Ogre Bbn1 compared to a Half-Orc Bbn1. I feel a bit vulnerable, my feats, HP, ability raises, etc are all lowered, in order to get a decent AC I need to wear heavier armor due to the -2 dex, and goblins still scare the poop out of me. Cripes, against Alchemist Fires my AC is a measly 10! Maybe a 14th level Half-Ogre is way better then a 15th level normal character, but going by level 1-2 where I'm playing it's perfectly fine to me. Sure, everything I hit dies - but that's my only benefit.

It doesnt take being at 15th. At fifth, the difference is pretty big, too. By then, you are only .5 hp behind, have that big ol +6 str, have reach and large size (their benefits outweigh the penalties), Nat Armor +4, and you both have weapon spec by then, and the same number of feats (altohugh the reg fighter gets feats at even levels and you at odd now).

Also, many fighters develop their bonuses similarly. Everyone gets focus, spec, their fighting style's feat chain, good armor at increasing plusses, stat-boostsing items, etc. Generally a fighter is pretty set by mid-high levels.

It is thus the MARGINAL benefits that make the Half Ogre overpowered. That one level gives them access to permanent large size and huge racial stat bonuses that cannot be duplicated other ways (at least permanently). Another fighter can buy slightly better nat armor items, but again it puts the ogre way ahead of the game. Heck, since nat armor only goes up to +5, he can save a ton of money and just upgrade his natural armor with a feat, which fighters eventually have in excess.

 

[Spatula]

I stand by my point anyhow, I don't feel any more powerful being a Half-Ogre Bbn1 compared to a Half-Orc Bbn1.

Then you must be doing something wrong. The half-ogre has everything the half-orc does, plus:
* +4 STR
* +2 CON
* -2 DEX
* +4 natural armor
* Large size
* 10' reach
* Better weapons
* Total immunity to many Enchantment spells
* Armor costs 2x

Now, if you want to compare a half-ogre Barbarian 1 to a half-orc Barbarian 2, then the half-ogre is also behind a level. It's still a steal for the half-ogre.

I feel a bit vulnerable, my feats, HP, ability raises, etc are all lowered, in order to get a decent AC I need to wear heavier armor due to the -2 dex,

The half-ogre has a net +2 to AC over the half-orc (+4 natural, -1 dex mod, -1 size).

and goblins still scare the poop out of me. Cripes, against Alchemist Fires my AC is a measly 10! Maybe a 14th level Half-Ogre is way better then a 15th level normal character, but going by level 1-2 where I'm playing it's perfectly fine to me. Sure, everything I hit dies - but that's my only benefit.

Well, then you are doing something wrong. Let's see what other benefits you get:

* +4 to grapple checks from size, + more from strength.
* larger weapons means +4 or more to disarm checks
* massive strength and weapon damage makes sundering a snap! Conversely, your larger weapons are less vulnerable to sundering (more hp).
* you can use combat manuevers that provoke AoOs from 10' away, thereby not provoking the AoO as the target does not threaten you. (disarm, sunder, etc.)
* opponents without reach can't close for melee without provoking AoO (barring tumble or spring attack).
* you can hit creatures that have 10' reach themselves in melee without provoking an AoO.
* having reach means that you can neutralize archers by getting in their face - they can't do the 5'-step-and-fire without provoking an AoO.
* that applies to spellcasters, too! (although they can attmpt to cast defensively - in which case you grapple them!)

That's off the top of my head. I'm probably forgetting something, though.

 

[Pax]

I still think at low levels its too good for ECL +1.

Technik

Simpel fix: give it MORE!!!

No, seriously.

You can stop laughing now.

I mean it, stop laughing!

A half-ogre is just that -- ahalf-ogre, right? Ogres get 4HD of type "Giant", right? So give half-ogres half of that ... 2HD, ot type Giant.

Good for 2d8 Hitpoints, plus twice their constitution modifier; good for +1 BAB and +1 to most or all saves.

Turns the total cost of the race to the same as a +3 ECL race. It doesn't SUCK, yet, it's not quite so overpowering: those Type: Giant HD aren't as good as Fighter or Barbarian HD, so it tends to water down the character somewhat ... but not so bad that the race is no longer attractive, either.

Try it out ... take it for a test drive. It's still good at bustin' heads, but it's not automatically THE one-and-only race to take for that role.

 

[Darklone]

Running the numbers, your fix looks really good, Pax. Thanks.

Whoever said the halfogre is ok at ECL +1 never saw one with Improved Trip and the best net stats by far due to point buy craziness.

 

[Dash Dannigan]

So what's wrong with just giving the half-ogre a +2 ecl instead? Sounds good to me.