Half orcs are real

Ironically, those who favor a separate species (instead of subspecies) did it based on prior mtDNA studies, which showed no evidence of genetic interaction. Papers by Pennisi (Science 323 (5916) 2009), Green and Briggs, et. al (EMBO Journal 28(17) 2009) find no such evidence in the Neanderthal genome project.

Yes, but there's a bit of a digital switch in that signal. Mitochondrial DNA is inherited from the mother. If there is no direct and unbroken maternal line between us and Neanderthal, you'll find exactly zero evidence in mtDNA. So, those studies only proved non-existence of such a maternal line to the overall human population today.
 

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From another article on Time.com on the same subject:

"Among the challenges were eliminating bacterial and fungal DNA, which accounted for 97% of the genetic material in the samples, and guarding against contamination from the researchers themselves, whose own DNA might be mistaken for Neanderthal."​

(emphasis mine)

:p
 

...does this mean that Captain Caveman was my ancestor?

Seriously, kinda cool to have this (nearly) proven, given its been speculated for so long. It'll be interesting to see what the bits of DNA left from them actually do.
As is the case with a lot of DNA, the vast majority of it will be either junk or regulatory functions we don't understand yet. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for anyone to know what any of it does.

That said, I'm sure within a couple years we'll have a couple people claiming to know something, and the media will hype it beyond belief. But the more media attention a bit of science gets, the faster the facts become fuzzy and then irrelevant.

As for the DNA evidence.... spotty as heck and not as mature a science as many would suggest. I will continue to live with the largely untried hypothesis that interbreeding happened. My reasons for this have little to do with various dodgy examples of paleo-genetic analysis. After all, humans will mate with anything that will stand still long enough. That assessment has stood unaltered for some time, and it will continue to stand as the most behaviorally parsimonious set of circumstances in my opinion, until such time as the evidence is conclusive.

More like the differences between tigers and lions. In the fossil record, it's extremely difficult to tell them apart as well. But they clearly are separate species; they can't interbreed and create fertile offspring, and hybrids never occurred in the wild, even when their ranges overlapped in Central Asia and India in historical times.
Actually, a decent percentage of female lygers and tigons have been fertile. For some reason, we've never really bothered applying everything we've learned about the fallacies of the generally accepted species concept to animals. We've got this species concept we inherited from the Dark Ages that we keep teaching in school because it kinda works a decent chunk of the time for more or less all of the highly visible animals and we don't notice the ubiquitous, even habitual, way everything but animals ignores it almost entirely.

That would involve explaining complicated things to children. Can't allow that.

From another article on Time.com on the same subject:

"Among the challenges were eliminating bacterial and fungal DNA, which accounted for 97% of the genetic material in the samples, and guarding against contamination from the researchers themselves, whose own DNA might be mistaken for Neanderthal."​

(emphasis mine)

:p
While non-trivial, that's not insurmountable. You could back check your DNA libraries against each separate human lineage they tested (5 as I recall) and see if there are differences that cannot be accounted for due to contamination from the lineage of the researchers.

This is an example of journalists asking researchers to speculate on possible, but not necessarily probable, mistakes. It is also a go-to statement for scientists who don't want this to be true: "Those guys are doin' it wrong."
 
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While non-trivial, that's not insurmountable. You could back check your DNA libraries against each separate human lineage they tested (5 as I recall) and see if there are differences that cannot be accounted for due to contamination from the lineage of the researchers.

This is an example of journalists asking researchers to speculate on possible, but not necessarily probable, mistakes. It is also a go-to statement for scientists who don't want this to be true: "Those guys are doin' it wrong."

I just thought the sentiment vaguely amusing... I work with at least one or two researchers who could very easily be mistaken for Neanderthals, regardless of their mitochondrial DNA.
 


Actually, a decent percentage of female lygers and tigons have been fertile.

Yes, but the males usually aren't. And even if they were - these crosses have not, to my knowledge, ever been observed in the wild, even in the times when the species shared territory.


We've got this species concept we inherited from the Dark Ages that we keep teaching in school because it kinda works a decent chunk of the time for more or less all of the highly visible animals and we don't notice the ubiquitous, even habitual, way everything but animals ignores it almost entirely.

It is my understanding that most of that "habitual" crossing is human induced, though, and doesn't happen to noticeable extents if you leave the populations sitting next to each other in the wild. Human-forced crossbreeding doesn't count.
 

My understanding was that this research was based on much better DNA evidence than the earlier research, and included completely sequencing the Neanderthal genome. If this is the case, this research should take precedence over the previous DNA research in terms of its likelihood of being correct.


RC
 

Actually, a decent percentage of female lygers and tigons have been fertile. For some reason, we've never really bothered applying everything we've learned about the fallacies of the generally accepted species concept to animals. We've got this species concept we inherited from the Dark Ages that we keep teaching in school because it kinda works a decent chunk of the time for more or less all of the highly visible animals and we don't notice the ubiquitous, even habitual, way everything but animals ignores it almost entirely.

That would involve explaining complicated things to children. Can't allow that.
Actually, despite a handful of exceptions, the rule still holds up well. No reason to invoke a conspiracy to dumb down the science.
My understanding was that this research was based on much better DNA evidence than the earlier research, and included completely sequencing the Neanderthal genome. If this is the case, this research should take precedence over the previous DNA research in terms of its likelihood of being correct.
It's not quite that simple, though. It's the interpretation of the data that is in question. It's not as simple as, "hey, we announced this new study, and now we supercede prior studies," it's got to percolate through the scientific method for some time, being tested and tried by the rest of the scientific community to see exactly what this means.

Right now, it's just another data point. It might change the course of the ship, or it might not. It's premature to make that claim either way. It's an intriguing data point, but it's still one data point, and it isn't divorced from the set of data that existed prior to now.
 

It's not as simple as, "hey, we announced this new study, and now we supercede prior studies,"

That's not exactly what I meant, you know. :hmm:

What we are looking at is more complete evidence, as I understand it. "We looked for X, but failed to find it in previous studies. Now we have a much better model of X, and have found it."

That obviously doesn't preclude the evidence being misleading -- or even being falsified, as has happened in the past -- but it does suggest that "We failed to find it before" is not an issue, as it is clear that we didn't have as complete a picture as to what we were looking for.

So, provisionally, I accept the study as plausible (although not necessarily true).


RC
 

It's not quite that simple, though. It's the interpretation of the data that is in question. It's not as simple as, "hey, we announced this new study, and now we supercede prior studies," it's got to percolate through the scientific method for some time, being tested and tried by the rest of the scientific community to see exactly what this means.

Right now, it's just another data point.

It isn't quite that simple, either, like each publication is a single data point given equal weight. Even an unbiased expert can have some difficulty working out which way the wind is blowing on a given topic.

Right now, it is more data. In all likelihood, in the not-too-distant future, there shall be even more data. Then, we shall see.
 

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