Half Race Appreciation Society: Half Elf most popular race choice in BG3

[Cadence]

Half Orc has lefit historical issues, so Half Elf is dropped by association.

That causing OTHERS (it's it's big tent after all) to feel slighted and so the cycle continues.

Fix the lore.

A thought from above about one way to handle it...

"What some might erroneously describe as apparent cross-species found in published D&D books (centaurs, Dragonborn, etc...) or other possibilities (dwarf-elves, human-orcs, Thri-kreen-dragon-born etc...) are separate species that arose in the ancient past - perhaps naturally (or maybe even more recently) supernaturally, from other planes, or by magic - just like all the ones in the PHB. Rules for constructing balanced abilities for such people to be used as PCs are in the DMG. It also contains examples of how these peoples have unique names not based on their appearances. "

I guess my two questions are:

Does this hurt the settings where there are countries made of half-orcs and half-elves as stand alone races?

How many players using half-elf and half-orc outside of those settings both need it to be explicitly biological and also don't draw on something involving at least one or the other sets of parents people being species-ist?

If the answers are no and not many, then are there any other problems with it?

 

[Veltharis ap Rylix]

Um... No?

The Khorvar were a part of the Kingdom of Galifar until the latter broke apart, just like every other race on Khorvaire. They have no unique lands and are culturally the same as humans or any other species living in that Nation. The only cultural element unique to them are their unique Marks/Houses.

Don't oversell Eberron's contribution: both races still lack a unique culture and exist as intermediates between their parent races. The difference is that not every half-elf is first generation human/elf caught between the disdain of their elvish parent and distrust of their human one, nor is every half-orc a child of violence rebelling against one or the other of their parent's species. They are not defined by the fact they don't fit in larger society, and small but important detail. Eberron half-elves and half-orcs aren't culturally unique, it's just that they aren't ostracized as part of their racial backstory.

Jhor'guntaal very much still play into the "bridge between two peoples" angle, but apart from House Medani and the sporadic first-generation types, Khoravar generally do not. They see themselves as a distinct people native to Khorvaire, separate from their human and elven ancestors who originated in Sarlona and Aerenal/Xen'drik respectively, and have existed as such for thousands of years, well predating Galifar.

Khoravar in particular are noted as having their own communities, if not necessarily their own nation - and there's a movement, pushed in no small part by House Lyrandar, to change that latter point.

The ostensibly elven nation of Valenar (formerly a chunk of southeastern Cyre seized by Tairnadal mercenaries during the Last War) is largely administrated by Lyrandar-backed Khoravar bureaucrats because the elves aren't actually there to govern - they're an occupying army readying for war (though against whom is uncertain) that may well have no intention of staying once their goals are achieved. By providing them with their administrative services, the Khoravar are effectively building a shadow government in Valenar and putting themselves in position to take over if/when the elves ultimately decide to withdraw.

 

[Micah Sweet]

A thought from above about one way to handle it...

"What some might erroneously describe as apparent cross-species found in published D&D books (centaurs, Dragonborn, etc...) or other possibilities (dwarf-elves, human-orcs, Thri-kreen-dragon-born etc...) are separate species that arose in the ancient past - perhaps naturally (or maybe even more recently) supernaturally, from other planes, or by magic - just like all the ones in the PHB. Rules for constructing balanced abilities for such people to be used as PCs are in the DMG. It also contains examples of how these peoples have unique names not based on their appearances. "

I guess my two questions are:

Does this hurt the settings where there are countries made of half-orcs and half-elves as stand alone races?

How many players using half-elf and half-orc outside of those settings both need it to be explicitly biological and also don't draw on something involving at least one or the other sets of parents people being species-ist?

If the answers are no and not many, then are there any other problems with it?

I don't think the answer to the second question is, "not many". Being the product of two heritages is what these people are. Family life and backstory play into that. If you want an example, look at the posts of literally anyone who identifies with these archetypes.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

A thought from above about one way to handle it...

"What some might erroneously describe as apparent cross-species found in published D&D books (centaurs, Dragonborn, etc...) or other possibilities (dwarf-elves, human-orcs, Thri-kreen-dragon-born etc...) are separate species that arose in the ancient past - perhaps naturally (or maybe even more recently) supernaturally, from other planes, or by magic - just like all the ones in the PHB. Rules for constructing balanced abilities for such people to be used as PCs are in the DMG. It also contains examples of how these peoples have unique names not based on their appearances. "

I guess my two questions are:

Does this hurt the settings where there are countries made of half-orcs and half-elves as stand alone races?

How many players using half-elf and half-orc outside of those settings both need it to be explicitly biological and also don't draw on something involving at least one or the other sets of parents people being species-ist?

If the answers are no and not many, then are there any other problems with it?

The problem is the answers are yes and many.

It just doesn't work.

 

[Cadence]

The problem is the answers are yes and several.

It just doesn't work.

Which settings is it in where there are large groups and it needs to be currently happening biology? (I have no idea).

As a total aside, I'm now thinking of John Carter and the egg laying martians being compatible. (I am not sure where my brain wants to go with it, but it popped up).

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Which settings is it in where there are large groups and it needs to be currently happening biology? (I have no idea).

As a total aside, I'm now thinking of John Carter and the egg laying martians being compatible. (I am not sure where my brain wants to go with it, but it popped up).

I dunno if you have people on ignore but Eberron, Dragonlance, and the Forgotten Realms all have significant numbers of half-elves both as individuals and communities, and where just ripping out the concept entirely would be not remotely valid and would indeed transform the histories and characters of those settings.

Given you weren't familiar with this, apparently, I hope you will do me the courtesy of not trying to argue from ignorance that I am wrong.

 

[Cadence]

I dunno if you have people on ignore but Eberron, Dragonlance, and the Forgotten Realms all have significant numbers of half-elves both as individuals and communities, and where just ripping out the concept entirely would not remotely valid and would indeed transform the histories and characters of those settings.

I had seen the Eberron reference several times above. I just didn't know if it was Eberron taking the mechanical half race and making a spot for them because they had to (and the origin being something different). Or that somehow a lot of biologically made Half-Orcs got together and their kids were all Half-Orcs. Hence my asking. Similar for if there is a Half-elf nation in FE.

I know Dragonlance has Tanis, but have no recollection of how much of his background involves being looked at oddly by humans and elves.

Given you weren't familiar with this, apparently, I hope you will do me the courtesy of not trying to argue from ignorance that I am wrong.

I wasn't trying to argue you were wrong (see above) I'd hope everyone on here would do everyone a bit more courtesy more regularly.

 

[Scribe]

A thought from above about one way to handle it...

"What some might erroneously describe as apparent cross-species found in published D&D books (centaurs, Dragonborn, etc...) or other possibilities (dwarf-elves, human-orcs, Thri-kreen-dragon-born etc...) are separate species that arose in the ancient past - perhaps naturally (or maybe even more recently) supernaturally, from other planes, or by magic - just like all the ones in the PHB. Rules for constructing balanced abilities for such people to be used as PCs are in the DMG. It also contains examples of how these peoples have unique names not based on their appearances. "

I guess my two questions are:

Does this hurt the settings where there are countries made of half-orcs and half-elves as stand alone races?

How many players using half-elf and half-orc outside of those settings both need it to be explicitly biological and also don't draw on something involving at least one or the other sets of parents people being species-ist?

If the answers are no and not many, then are there any other problems with it?

I think it still is a problem.

I can only comment from my own view and experience of course but this is a problem (mixed species in a fantastical world) I have thought about way too much really but thats what we do.

1. From a pure biological point of view, I dont like it. Either they are different species (Dogs vs Cats vs Lizards vs Bugs) or not, the lore is a mess, and frankly needs to be jettisoned, and so outside of established settings (DL, Eberron, FR) I do. In my own setting, its Half Elf/Orc, and only for 'grandfathered' purposes because of...

2. Remove any and all nationalistic, ethnic, or cultural association and Half Elf/Orc STILL are representation to some. They just are. Do we NEED a species to fulfill a trope of 'caught between two worlds' in regards to ethnic/species/cultural/class lines? Well no, we dont NEED it, but we dont NEED anything but Humans either, as obviously humanity can fill near any trope that is possible unless you want to go real gonzo like a bug race or something.

Thats really as simple as I can make it. Keep the Half Elf/Orc, forget about the lore, fix it, but the trope or concept of what these options mean to others, is a real thing, and on that basis alone, TO ME, its a mistake to remove these options, and so even though I personally have issue with getting them into my setting, they exist on that basis alone, and yes 'a God/Wizard' did it is what it boils down to.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I know Dragonlance has Tanis, but have no recollection of how much of his background involves being looked at oddly by humans and elves.

A lot. Racial prejudice (from both sides) is basically his entire backstory.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I had seen the Eberron reference several times above. I just didn't know if it was Eberron taking the mechanical half race and making a spot for them because they had to (and the origin being something different). Or that somehow a lot of biologically made Half-Elves and Half-Orcs got together and their kids were all Half-Orcs. Hence my asking. Similar for if there is a Half-elf nation in FE.

Well the answer is very clearly that it is important they have a biological history of being who they are. Half-Elves or Half-Orcs that aren't a combination are something else.

In the FR, you have Aglarond as a majority-half-elf nation, and a lot of Dalelands and surrounding areas have huge half-elf populations, and it's important those are populations that are products of elves and humans choosing to have children together, and those peoples then having children themselves and so on.

I know Dragonlance has Tanis, but have no recollection of how much of his background involves being looked at oddly by humans and elves.

It is, and I am not joking, one of the most major, if not the most major theme of Tanis' story in the original Dragonlance trilogy - how he's between two worlds, rather than choosing one, and so on.

I guess what you're getting at is, what, the Mul issue? Muls are an interestingly different case. It doesn't really further their themes much to have them as half-human, half-dwarf. Particularly because they're the product of not two loving parents, but forced breeding by slavers. So in that case, where both the product isn't sort of "between" the two, but something much stranger, and where a grim background is implied, then we can do better with having them being a biologically separate species. It helps that they only exist in one setting, and half-dwarves who exist elsewhere never followed the same rules.