FireLance
Legend
Could I ask: how is it different from any other multi-target power with the same crit range and crit benefits? The same worries ought to be present for any multi-target power, not just hand of radiance.
Hand of Radiance too powerful?
- Thread starter FrozenChrono
- Start date
Scholar & Brutalman
First Post
4e doesn't make getting a 19-20 critical very difficult once you reach paragon, and it's relatively easy once you get to epic. The designers have also added a whole lot of feats that have benefits on a critical. I don't think this is unintentional.
If I was the player and you said you had to nerf this because it was too powerful, my next question would be "What nerfs are you applying to Twin Strike?"
- Twin Strike also leads to builds focused just on it,
- Twin Strike has access to the many weapon feats that trigger on criticals,
- Twin Strike can get the improved critical in paragon through jagged weapons or various paragon paths,
- Twin Strike can be used to focus fire on one target which is usually the best way to kill fastest,
- and Twin Strike is in PHB1.
Hand of radiance is a very good at-will, but it isn't the best in the game.
Flipguarder
First Post
Hand of radiance targets more enemies than most multi-target powers. It is also at-will. Although I understand my concern should also exist when dealing with any burst attack (and it does) I find it easier to believe an area burst 1 within 10 will target fewer enemies on average than 4. But again, if someone found a way to get an area burst 2 at will, and managed to get 19-20 crit range, then stacked a bunch of critical benefit bonuses on top of that, I would have a problem with that build too.
Twin strike has effectively half the crit chance hand of radiance does. That is why I feel its a poor comparison. I do agree that all things included, it is the best at-will in the game. Someone has to have it I suppose. And yet again. If anyone in a game of mine went completely out of their way to make twin strike the crux of their build by doing the same thing (stacking crit benefits and crit range) I'd have to look at that too.
Scholar & Brutalman
First Post
A wizard can get an at-will area burst 3 by early paragon using Arcane Admixture, Expand Spell and Resounding Thunder. By multiclassing into Wizard Swordmages can apply this to Sword Burst to get a close burst 3 which only targets enemies (this is what's usually called the Thunderball Swordmage.) If they really want, they can take Arcane Implement Proficiency Light or Heavy Blade and use a Jagged Weapon as an implement to get the 19-20 critical. The crit benefit feats aren't as good, by they have some nice options in Destructive Wizardry and Solid Sound.
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I still says the fix to this is making so that only the first roll of any
(at will only maybe) power
or it you don't want to Nerf aoe that much then make it so that you can only crit once per power that way you don't have to worry about stacking buffs.
I think however what ever fix you make to effect this power should be handled across the board to Twin Strike and the rest.
is there a reason this will not work to fix the issue. it gives all powers a 5%-10% crit chance no matter how many targets.
(at will only maybe) power
or it you don't want to Nerf aoe that much then make it so that you can only crit once per power that way you don't have to worry about stacking buffs.
I think however what ever fix you make to effect this power should be handled across the board to Twin Strike and the rest.
is there a reason this will not work to fix the issue. it gives all powers a 5%-10% crit chance no matter how many targets.
FireLance
Legend
If the number of targets is a problem, why not just scale it back to 2 targets, as suggested by keterys?
Baumi
Adventurer
The two feats mentioned in the OP were both EPIC ... at that time I wouldn't care about powers that only do damage. There are far too many really crazy things happening to care about a few more hitpoints lost, the real killers will be powers that stun, teleport the enemies to other dimensions and stuff like that! Also there are a few powers that can include way more enemies easily at that time...
Lets solve this once and for all... with math!
Give me the actual attack bonus and damage of this character using Hand of Radiance, and I'll give you the expected damage per round using this power versus four given targets, adjusted for multiple rounds, critical hit chance, and the effect of the critical hit feats.
Give me the actual attack bonus and damage of this character using Hand of Radiance, and I'll give you the expected damage per round using this power versus four given targets, adjusted for multiple rounds, critical hit chance, and the effect of the critical hit feats.
Garthanos
Arcadian Knight
Because there are way too many ways to get 4 enemies by controllers
take expand spell... and just about anything or resounding thunder and other things.. .
It is the criticals avalanche of effects that seem to be bothersome.... could the op post his character in CB format?
Eric Finley
First Post
Actually, I think it may just be Font of Radiance that's the issue with this build. All the other crit-dependent stuff isn't too bad. Font of Radiance was a marginal feat when first released in PHB I, but since then there have been a lot more radiant effects released and it's incrementing upward. (I'm surprised nobody has yet brought up Rod of the Dragonborn + Radiant Breath from the recent Bahamut article. Picture a Frostcheese Dragonborn Sorcerer all of whose spells are Radiant+Cold... or, probably less effeciently but more entertainingly, a Dragonsouled Revenant whose spells are all Necrotic+Radiant+Cold.)
Prior to Font of Radiance, it's not nearly as spectacular; IMO it's just that one feat which is a potential problem. And the OP implies that the PCs are not yet even Paragon tier. Can I ask what level span you're honestly expecting for this campaign? 'Cause that's a long time out before you have to worry about that element of it... by which point a whole lot of water will have gone under the bridge, and a whole lot of sourcebooks been added to the universe, and the build may no longer even be of interest to you.
So, frankly, as a DM I would personally allow the character but let him know that I may end up somewhat nerfing Font of Radiance. (For example, it would still be a good feat with "until end of your next turn" instead of "(save ends)" on the effect. At which point it's +3-9 d6, on a critical hit, with this at-will, at epic. Nice, but meh.)
Also note that two elements of the scariness of the build actually counteract each other... Hand of Radiance can hit targets on opposite sides of a room, but the Font of Radiance additional damage hits things adjacent to the critted target. If you have to use positioning control to group your monsters together to get the full benefit, then it's no more powerful than Blazing Starfall at that point. In fact, since you'd really have to use positioning control ahead of time to make best use of it, but you don't know which target (if any) you will crit (barring MC Sorceror, anyway)... I'd say that the versatility of Hand of Radiance is already being made less and less useful by using it in this combo. (Or, alternately put, the "+3d6 to adjacent enemies" is less likely to trigger if you make proper use of Hand.)
As a more interesting fix, and one I may consider in my game if our Invoker gets excessively powerful compared to the rest of the group (not likely, doubly so since this is her first time gaming), would be to anti-burst the power. "Three targets, none of whom are adjacent to any other" or even "Three targets, each of whom is at least three squares away from any other." Now that's a cool and interesting tactical setup!
Prior to Font of Radiance, it's not nearly as spectacular; IMO it's just that one feat which is a potential problem. And the OP implies that the PCs are not yet even Paragon tier. Can I ask what level span you're honestly expecting for this campaign? 'Cause that's a long time out before you have to worry about that element of it... by which point a whole lot of water will have gone under the bridge, and a whole lot of sourcebooks been added to the universe, and the build may no longer even be of interest to you.
So, frankly, as a DM I would personally allow the character but let him know that I may end up somewhat nerfing Font of Radiance. (For example, it would still be a good feat with "until end of your next turn" instead of "(save ends)" on the effect. At which point it's +3-9 d6, on a critical hit, with this at-will, at epic. Nice, but meh.)
Also note that two elements of the scariness of the build actually counteract each other... Hand of Radiance can hit targets on opposite sides of a room, but the Font of Radiance additional damage hits things adjacent to the critted target. If you have to use positioning control to group your monsters together to get the full benefit, then it's no more powerful than Blazing Starfall at that point. In fact, since you'd really have to use positioning control ahead of time to make best use of it, but you don't know which target (if any) you will crit (barring MC Sorceror, anyway)... I'd say that the versatility of Hand of Radiance is already being made less and less useful by using it in this combo. (Or, alternately put, the "+3d6 to adjacent enemies" is less likely to trigger if you make proper use of Hand.)
As a more interesting fix, and one I may consider in my game if our Invoker gets excessively powerful compared to the rest of the group (not likely, doubly so since this is her first time gaming), would be to anti-burst the power. "Three targets, none of whom are adjacent to any other" or even "Three targets, each of whom is at least three squares away from any other." Now that's a cool and interesting tactical setup!
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