Handling Cheating

[The Red King]

Sarah: What a horrible place this is! It's not fair!
Bottom Red Guard: That's right. It's not fair! [All the guards laugh.]
Bottom Red Guard: But that's only half of it!
Sarah: This was a dead end a minute ago.
Bottom Blue Guard: No, that's the dead end behind you! [All the guards laugh, and Sarah sees that they are right.]
Sarah: It keeps changing! What am I supposed to do?
Bottom Red Guard: The only way out of here is to try one of these doors.
Bottom Blue Guard: One of them leads to the castle at the centre of the Labyrinth, and the other one leads to...
Top Blue Guard: B-b-b-BOOM!
Bottom Blue Guard: Certain death!
All Guards: Ooooooooh! Sarah: Which one is which?
Bottom Red Guard: Er, we can't tell you.
Sarah: Why not? [The bottom guards think and mutter to each other.]
Bottom Red Guard: We don't know!
Bottom Blue Guard: [looks up at top guards] But they do.
Sarah: Oh. Then I'll ask them.
Top Red Guard: No. You can't ask us. You can only ask one of us.
Top Blue Guard: It's in the rules, and I should warn you that one of us always tells the truth, and one of us always lies. That's in the rules too. He always lies.
Top Red Guard: I do not! I tell the truth!
Top Blue Guard: Oooh, what a lie!

 

[S'mon]

The idea that caps lock is shouting over the internet is not one im good at remembering. I am mearly trying to draw attention to the point that people seem to be ignoring, i will use bold text in future apologies if you took offence. Its not a subjective issue because we were discussing whether a DM can cheat at the game, Which he can't. The simple version of this is that by the letter of the law the DM, acording to the rule book its self, can not cheat. Y

How about some page refs and quotes on that, then?

 

[Water Bob]

There is no universal truth here, it downtime matter if the DM really can or cannot cheat. If a player feels cheated of their expected play experience, then a player feels cheated, I don't understand why you guys think this isn't a subjective issue.

Much of it comes from the smoke & mirrors that many GMs perpetuate themselves. Many GMs, myself included, sells players on the game by convincing them that they, as GM's, don't cheat.

Somehow, this makes players feel more comfortable--like they're not in a purely manipulative world (which they are). The game is more fun is you believe that you, as a player, actually earn success.

It's a skewed way of looking at reality.

If more players would actually look behind the curtain and see the Great Oz for who he truly is, then they'd see that GM's either can't cheat...or they cheat all the time.

And, then the game isn't as much fun.

I always strive to keep my players believing that my game is on the up and up. But I know, as a GM, I'm always pulling strings and altering this and that in order to make the game FUN.

If everybody has a good time, then I've done my job.

Show of hands, how many people play the game by RAW?

I do.

No House Rules....yet.

People who tell other people that they are "wrong", and refuse to see how another person could see it from another perspective scare me.

But what he's talking about is B&W, that it seems a lot of people can't see.

The DMG states that a DM can't cheat when it says that a good DM controls all aspects of the game, including rules, situations, gods, and fun.

How about some page refs and quotes on that, then?

I listed a couple of pages that support it. Look at my post above.

 

[Elf Witch]

The idea that caps lock is shouting over the internet is not one im good at remembering. I am mearly trying to draw attention to the point that people seem to be ignoring, i will use bold text in future apologies if you took offence. Its not a subjective issue because we were discussing whether a DM can cheat at the game, Which he can't. The simple version of this is that by the letter of the law the DM, acording to the rule book its self, can not cheat. You can argue to the cows come home that in some way he's cheating his players out of a desired experiance but that is not the same as a player fudging his dice rolls. Theres fact and then theres opinions, your giving an opinion and unless you can show me otherwise your wrong

DMs can most certainly cheat I have seen it with my very eyes.

I consider it cheating when you adjudicate rules for your wife different than the other players.Or when that player has a special I will never die protection that the rest don't get.

I consider it cheating when a DM keeps changing the rules to benefit his NPCs.

 

[S'mon]

I listed a couple of pages that support it. Look at my post above.

Few of us would agree that "GM controls the world" = "GM can't cheat". But if you have any actual quotes from actual RPG books that actually say "The GM can't cheat" I would be happy to read them. I would not be too surprised if they exist, either, though I think it's a small minority opinion. This attitude leads to the Illusionist play style you favour - and the problem with Illusionism is that for it to work it requires that the players never do notice the man behind the curtain.

 

[Elf Witch]

Much of it comes from the smoke & mirrors that many GMs perpetuate themselves. Many GMs, myself included, sells players on the game by convincing them that they, as GM's, don't cheat.

Somehow, this makes players feel more comfortable--like they're not in a purely manipulative world (which they are). The game is more fun is you believe that you, as a player, actually earn success.

It's a skewed way of looking at reality.

If more players would actually look behind the curtain and see the Great Oz for who he truly is, then they'd see that GM's either can't cheat...or they cheat all the time.

And, then the game isn't as much fun.

I always strive to keep my players believing that my game is on the up and up. But I know, as a GM, I'm always pulling strings and altering this and that in order to make the game FUN.

If everybody has a good time, then I've done my job.









I do.

No House Rules....yet.








But what he's talking about is B&W, that it seems a lot of people can't see.

The DMG states that a DM can't cheat when it says that a good DM controls all aspects of the game, including rules, situations, gods, and fun.







I listed a couple of pages that support it. Look at my post above.

There is a social contract when you sit down and play and RPG. If the DM says I am going to run a heroic style campaign and it is not going to be gritty more along the lines of superhero game to sell it to his players then turns around and runs the game as a gritty death filled campaign he has lied to his players.

As others have said if you play in a game where everyone agrees to let the dice fall as they may and the DM fudges the dice rolls then he is breaking the social contract and a lot of players have said they considered that a form of cheating.

I always roll behind a screen and I will fudge to make the game better if I deem it so. I prefer to play in games where the DM is willing to fudge now and then. But my players know this and agreed to play this way. If I had a player ask me not to then I would honor is request and not do so on matters of dice rolling.

The other examples are not cheating it is running the game. Being able to adjust things on the fly is a sign of a good DM.

Maybe you wrote a combat where at a certain point a lot of undead were going to come streaming in the room. But you didn't plan for the cleric to get knocked to -5 and while stabilized is out of commission. You know now that as written the party won't be able to handle it and it will be a TPK you can go ahead and still run it as written or you can adjust it.

That is no different then running a printed module and taking out all the traps because the party does not have a rogue.

Adding hit points to an NPC to make the encounter more challenging or taking off hit points to make it easier is not cheating. Saying you hit a PC when you missed or adding more damage than you rolled is going into the realm of cheating. Telling a player they missed when they hit just because you didn't want them to hit is in my opinion cheating.

If your players find out you are doing that then you are going to have some angry players on your hands. Because you have made what they do not count.

 

[Water Bob]

DMs can most certainly cheat I have seen it with my very eyes.

I consider it cheating when you adjudicate rules for your wife different than the other players.Or when that player has a special I will never die protection that the rest don't get.

I consider it cheating when a DM keeps changing the rules to benefit his NPCs.

Just because you consider it cheating doesn't make it so. The DMG backs up what I've said.

What you're describing is bad form, and the GM failing at one of his jobs by not making the game fun for you. But, it's not cheating.

Few of us would agree that "GM controls the world" = "GM can't cheat". But if you have any actual quotes from actual RPG books that actually say "The GM can't cheat" I would be happy to read them.

You don't think the DMG saying that the GM controls EVERYTHING--that NOTHING is out of his control is enough?

It's got to actually say, "S'mon, a DM cannot cheat"?

 

[Water Bob]

Maybe saying that a DM can't cheat is the wrong way to go.

Maybe it better to say that it doesn't matter if a GM does cheat.

According to Dictionary.com, "Cheat" means to defraud, swindle, deceive.

Obviously, those are all good GMing tools.

Maybe it's better to say taht the DM is the biggest Cheater that exists in every game, but when the players sit down with a GM, they do so knowing full well that he will cheat.

 

[Umbran]

Its not subjective whether a DM can cheat or not. He Can't.

Heh. You know, absolutes usually aren't. I suggest folks use them sparingly.

We all agree, the game has rules. In short - breaking those rules is cheating.

You say, "The GM *makes* the rules of the game, so therefore he cannot cheat!"

I say, "There are rules beyond just those of resolving action in the game. Rules of behavior between people. Breaking those rules to make things turn out the way he wants is cheating for the GM."

I have repeatedly brought up tournament play in this discussion as a prime example. In tournaments, there are rules *beyond* those of just resolving actions in game, that govern how he or she may apply the rules for resolving actions in game. The GM can most certainly break those rules and be considered cheating. A tournament GM, for example, *cannot* go changing the number of skeletons in the room, or fudge die rolls, or allow die rolls to be fudged at the table. Doing any of those things to make the game easier or harder for players would be considered cheating.

In the more usual social play, there can still be rules analogous to those that bind the GM's behavior in a tournament - some of which might pertain to the rules that govern resolving game action, some of which might pertain to other conduct at the table. The GM can break those, and then be cheating.

 

[Water Bob]

The GM can break those, and then be cheating.

Only from the Player's point of view.