Handling Cheating

[gamerprinter]

He can do things I won't accept or like as a player, but he cannot cheat.

Call it what you want to call it. I call it conditions that will not be tolerated in our game. I'm sure like everything else, we have different definitions for concepts, perhaps cheating is not what is going on - whatever it's called, it's going to stop in our game.

I nothing against getting creative with an encounter, introduction of new rules, conditions that create unique situations. I'm fine with all of that, and do so myself, when I GM. Rules fudging is within the rights of a GM. But not having defined saving throws and determining at will without affect by dice rolling the success or failure of given determination - is not something I am interested in doing.

We have other GMs and long experience of this kind of thing not happening in our games. For it to suddenly rear it's head - we're nipping it in the bud. No more problem.

 

[Vincent Blackwater]

Haha I can't believe I read as much as I did on this thread. This carried on WAY too long and no one has swayed anyone else from their main opinions.

I love 3.5! 4th edition sucks! That's my opinion as a cheating DM who can't cheat because I am DM!

 

[Argyle King]

All I can really say is that I still disagree. I feel a GM can cheat. Many rpgs allow some leeway within the rules to fudge due to the open ended nature of a roleplaying game, and I perfectly understand that. I simply don't buy the idea that "GMs cannot cheat" is a universal truth.

Can DMPCs cheat?

Can all GMs be promiscuous without needing to worry whether or not their significant others will approve of the activity?




I'm really not even worked up about the idea. I feel people should hold whatever opinions they want. I simply wanted to speak out so as to voice that not everyone holds the same opinion about whether or not GMs can cheat. It's not an accepted truth among the community.

 

[TarionzCousin]

Every GM Cheats. Every one of 'em. No matter the play style.

Check out the 3.5 DMG, pg. 18, under the title DM CHEATING AND PLAYER PERCEPTIONS.

Second paragraph, first sentence: Do you cheat? The answer: The DM really can't cheat.

Do you recognize this picture?

 

[Cor Azer]

Do you recognize this picture?

Thread won.

 

[korjik]

Thread won.

No, it isnt.

 

[Aberzanzorax]

Okay, I've actually been swayed.

My position is now "A DM can't cheat at D&D."

However, that is far different from "A DM can't cheat."


There are (at least) three fine lines to understand the difference between those two statements.

1. Gaming group limits. This category is a separate set of rules from the D&D rules, though it may impinge upon, expand, or directly change the D&D rules as well. This includes a DM who agrees to never fudge and then fudges, a DM who agrees to use standard monster hp out of the box and then changes them, to run a module as written and then changing it, etc. The DM has not cheated at D&D by doing these things, but he has cheated at gaming group limits.

2. Organized/tournament play. This category is similar to #1, but different enough to deserve its own category. A DM playing as part of the RPGA, for example, is agreeing to play under their rules and to run things with only so many changes as are allowed (this is to balance the challenge/experience to be somewhat uniform amongst all players of the modules). If the DM oversteps his proscribed power limits, he has cheated not at d&d, but he has cheated the organized rules.


3. Standard play. A more complete quote from the section that Water Bob pulled his quote from is as follows:

Do you cheat? The answer: The DM really can’t cheat. You’re the umpire, and what you say goes. As such, it’s certainly within your rights to sway things one way or another to keep people happy or keep things running smoothly. It’s no fun losing a longterm character who gets run over by a cart. A good rule of thumb is that a character shouldn’t die in a trivial way because of some fluke of the dice unless he or she was doing something really stupid at the time.


However, you might not think it’s right or even fun unless you obey the same rules the players do. Sometimes the PCs get lucky and kill an NPC you had planned to have around for a long time. By the same token, sometimes things go against the PCs, and disaster may befall them. Both the DM and the players take the bad with the good. That’s a perfectly acceptable way to play, and if there’s a default method of DMing, that’s it.

Please note the last sentence. "That’s a perfectly acceptable way to play, and if there’s a default method of DMing, that’s it." The default method of DMing is for the DM to obey the same rules the players do. So while it is within the rules of D&D for a dm to occasionally fudge (occasionally is mentioned in that section on DM cheating as well), it is not the default method.​

So, I'll agree that a dm who is unfair to players, makes things up on the fly, has a DMpc who the rules do not apply to, brings in Deus Ex Machina, etc is not cheating. Many of these are, or can be, instances of really crappy dming, but are not cheating.​

 

[bloodtide]

How do you handle players who feel the need to lie about their die rolls on a fairly regular basis?

I have one player who regularly cheats on his initiative rolls and sometimes on his attack rolls. Besides observing it a few times, simple statistics tell me he is either fudging or should consider putting that unbelievable luck to work on the lottery.

As far as I can tell, it does not impact other people's enjoyment, except me, the GM. I'd rather not have to confront him about it, as I'm not sure how he'd take it, although I have tried a few "really, wow, how big is your bonus" type comments.

I simply cheat back. Whatever he is doing will simply be increased by a couple points of off set his high rolls. For example giving a couple more points of AC. For a bit more non direct, I'll give the foes something like potions of DR 5/- or spell resistance.

I will almost never tell the player or anyone else...and it's rare for them to catch on at all.

 

[gamerprinter]

OK, here's an example of GM/Player cheating.

We've got one player, who sometimes wore the GM's hat (it's now forbidden from him, in our group). We are at 11th level. Normally, as GMs at this point we only provide +3 items at best at that level. However, the cheater in question was a temporary GM for 3 sessions. As a final big prize, he provided a +5 Holy Avenger as party treasure (we told him that was too powerful for our level).

So the next session, when he's a player again, he shows us on his sheet that he's taken a single level dip in Paladin. But not for optimization it turns out, he took the paladin level, so he could qualify as the best PC wielding the +5 Holy Avenger, that he provided - he said, as a paladin, it should be his item.

That my friends, is the long tail of cheating. Perhaps it wasn't a GM cheat, but by combining GM granted treasure, then becoming a player that ideally should have that item - I cannot think of a more 'cheating' escapade than that. (This is the same GM I called a cheater earlier in this thread...)

 

[Water Bob]

I simply cheat back.

That's an OUTSTANDING idea.

In all my years of gaming, I've never thought of that.

I'm stealing your idea. If I ever see a player cheat in the future (it's happened so rarely to me, that it's years or decades in between instances), I won't make a fuss and kick him out of the game. I'll simply fudge to his detriment several times, until he gets the point.

I love it.

OK, here's an example of GM/Player cheating.

As GM, awarding the +5 Holy Avenger to the group? Not cheating at all.

As a player, using his GM status to equip his character? Yep, cheater.

As GM and player, he sounds lousy.