HARN helped me become a better DM!
- Thread starter Kaptain_Kantrip
- Start date
Valmur_Dwur
First Post
Ok here's confrontational, Harn sucks! But not really
There is a Harn D20 suppliment out that I picked up. It's good but not what I wanted in my Greyhawk world
I think honestly though KK that the reason Harn works so well for you and your group you alluded too. The 20 years of nothing but the DnD stuff. By transplanting worlds and campaigns plus the fact that you took over for a burnt out DM makes everything seem new. This is how DnD or any RP system looks to a newbie. Wow I can cast magic missile? I cast it at the Darkness Not slamming your game just giving you a different spin on what is going on. When 3e DnD came out everyone was gushing. Now the honeymoon is over and people are starting to find the flaws. And there are flaws in every RP system ever made. It's just what you do with it
Happy Gaming!
There is a Harn D20 suppliment out that I picked up. It's good but not what I wanted in my Greyhawk world I think honestly though KK that the reason Harn works so well for you and your group you alluded too. The 20 years of nothing but the DnD stuff. By transplanting worlds and campaigns plus the fact that you took over for a burnt out DM makes everything seem new. This is how DnD or any RP system looks to a newbie. Wow I can cast magic missile? I cast it at the Darkness Not slamming your game just giving you a different spin on what is going on. When 3e DnD came out everyone was gushing. Now the honeymoon is over and people are starting to find the flaws. And there are flaws in every RP system ever made. It's just what you do with it Happy Gaming!
Kaptain_Kantrip
First Post
Actually, I really wouldn't get more mileage out of these posts there, because everyone there is already converted (either to the setting, the rules, or both). It would be like preaching to the choir, LOL. ...Although I did post this thread first in a truncated version on the Harn Forum, and people were appreciative of learning how Harn had improved my DMing ability.
As to the ENWorld version of the thread, I'm not trying to be confrontational and am just trying to heighten awareness of all things Harnic (including its d20 potential) to anyone who might be potentially interested. Certainly, I was one of those vocal d20 elitists ("one system to rule them all") prior to my discovery of Harn. Now, I realize the error of my ways. That is not to say that d20 is bad or should be destroyed (as some might say). d20 is undoubtedly superior for creating high fantasy or cinematic games and I would use it for gaming such, but it starts to break down (IMO) when trying to adapt it to gritty low fantasy and more logical character creation and advancement. That's where a system like HarnMaster comes in. For high fantasy, go d20. For low fantasy, there are better options. Both styles of play are perfectly fun and valid. I'm just swinging around to low fantasy after getting burned out on too much high fantasy. d20 didn't really provide what I needed to run low fantasy the way I envisioned it, so I world/system hopped over to Harn. Actually, I think after doing so, I would be more willing/likely to try other game systems. The Riddle of Steel RPG is getting rave reviews over at the Harn forum, so I might check that one out to see if it might suit my current needs even better than HarnMaster (perish the thought, LOL).
Anyway, sorry if my boundless Harnic enthusiasm was mistaken for something else.
...Although I did post this thread first in a truncated version on the Harn Forum, and people were appreciative of learning how Harn had improved my DMing ability. As to the ENWorld version of the thread, I'm not trying to be confrontational and am just trying to heighten awareness of all things Harnic (including its d20 potential) to anyone who might be potentially interested. Certainly, I was one of those vocal d20 elitists ("one system to rule them all") prior to my discovery of Harn. Now, I realize the error of my ways. That is not to say that d20 is bad or should be destroyed (as some might say). d20 is undoubtedly superior for creating high fantasy or cinematic games and I would use it for gaming such, but it starts to break down (IMO) when trying to adapt it to gritty low fantasy and more logical character creation and advancement. That's where a system like HarnMaster comes in. For high fantasy, go d20. For low fantasy, there are better options. Both styles of play are perfectly fun and valid. I'm just swinging around to low fantasy after getting burned out on too much high fantasy. d20 didn't really provide what I needed to run low fantasy the way I envisioned it, so I world/system hopped over to Harn. Actually, I think after doing so, I would be more willing/likely to try other game systems. The Riddle of Steel RPG is getting rave reviews over at the Harn forum, so I might check that one out to see if it might suit my current needs even better than HarnMaster (perish the thought, LOL).
Anyway, sorry if my boundless Harnic enthusiasm was mistaken for something else.
Kaptain_Kantrip
First Post
Olive said:
I thought our group's resident hack-n-slasher would hate Harn, because all he did before in D&D was charge and kill everything, LOL, although to his credit he had a very keen mind for problem-solving. However, we were stunned when he joined our Harn game and immediately started talking more in character, thinking before he acted and became generally well-behaved (at least for him).
He understands and appreciates how deadly and unforgiving Harn can be (we warned him profusely about this ahead of time just to be safe) and so he has become more creative with his mayhem-making... but he says he is also feeling much more comfortable and in tune with the game world and his character after switching to Harn. I chalk that up to the heavy background detail and more realistic environment/character creation Harn and HarnMaster provide. It's like a miracle watching him blossom as a roleplayer thanks to his immersion in Harn. The rest of the group misses him when he has to skip a session because he hyas become an asset instead of a liability, LOL.
This ties in with what I was saying before about a switch from High Fantasy to Low Fantasy radically altering problem or inexperienced players in a positive way. It encourages logical, creative thinking, strategy and teamwork. Then, if and when you switch back to high fantasy, they will be better gamers for it. Poo-poo it all ye want, but it worked for my group, and made me a better DM to boot.
Try it for yourself and see!
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BigFreekinGoblinoid
First Post
Kaptain_Kantrip said:...
HarnMaster is hardly a perfect rules set. It is not written clearly and information is scattered all over the place. It uses a lot of abbreviations that are hard to remember at first. It is more complicated to run combats, cast magic, use psionics and create characters than d20. ...
Dear Kaptain Karrot
: Properly roleplayed, under d20 rules, it took me an hour to resolve a one monster EL 4 combat with 2 PC's last week. I'm hardly in the market for something MORE complicated! I can appreciate your enthusiam, and the detail that HARN provides, but "...with no levels or XP to gain, the PCs knew when to run and when to fight" - a quote from an earlier post of yours - turned me off right away, even though I was open minded enough to read your posts.
My suggestion would be to polish up your sales pitch, then come back LATER and post a SHORTER message that offers a specific free example/link for some d20 complimentary material. One link. How to use it. Why it's helpful. Ease me in slowly - please be gentle...
EDIT: Yes I saw your examples above, but basically I feel like you are asking me to get married before our first date! Lets try again at a different time. My calandar is booked, and I need to wash my army shirt.
Just some unsolicited advice, because I admire your tenacity. I hope you will receive it with an open mind.
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Kaptain_Kantrip
First Post
BigFreekinGoblinoid said:
Dear Kaptain Karrot
My first HarnMaster combat took me 5 freaking hours to run between eight combatants (total 3 PCs and 5 NPCs). My next HarnMaster combat (5 PCs vs 5 wolves) took 2 hours. My third HM combat (a replay of the wolf battle because we made some goofs, LOL) only took about an hour. My fourth HM combat (5 PCs vs. 5 NPCs) only took about 45 minutes. So it definitely gets easier and faster as you learn the ropes. Generally, in Harn, you will have less battles than D&D worlds because Harn is so damned deadly, hehe! Characters tend to choose their fights more carefully when each one could be their last!
BigFreekinGoblinoid said:
Hmm. I was initially skeptical of a non-level approach as well, but it has turned out to extremely liberating. No classes, no levels, no XP. Instead, you can be whatever you want, even simultaneously! Characters improve skills with practice, earning SMPs (Skill Maintenance Points) each time they use a skill. At the end of each month, you get a chance to improve each skill you racked up SMPs in. It's not like you can't ever improve or anything. Optional rules allow you to increase your Strength and Endurance ability scores with training. But really, what you are trying to do with your HarnMaster character is to accomplish his or her goals and ambitions more than trying to power ramp, multiclass and prestige class. There is much less tendency toward min/maxing and more attention to character concept than d20. All skills and some abilities are derived from the average of three ability scores, ensuring no single ability score outshines the rest.
BigFreekinGoblinoid said:
Heh, I appreciate your appreciation of my tenacity to keep plugging Harn here @ ENWorld. I admit perhaps I dished out information over-kill, but when I get on a roll...
Here is a link to some free d20 Harn material, an 8 page pdf file:
http://www.columbiagames.com/Products/Harnworld/index.html
This is the electronic version of the d20 insert that comes with Nasty, Brutish & Short: Orcs of Harn, but it gives some detail on how to run the Harn setting with d20 along with converted monster and NPC stats.
BigFreekinGoblinoid
First Post
Kaptain_Kantrip said:
Heh, I appreciate your appreciation of my tenacity to keep plugging Harn here @ ENWorld. I admit perhaps I dished out information over-kill, but when I get on a roll...
Here is a link to some free d20 Harn material, an 8 page pdf file:
http://www.columbiagames.com/Products/Harnworld/index.html
This is the electronic version of the d20 insert that comes with Nasty, Brutish & Short: Orcs of Harn, but it gives some detail on how to run the Harn setting with d20 along with converted monster and NPC stats.
*** Sigh**** Gee, thanks for giving me a link to the main product/store page.
http://www.columbiagames.com/Products/Harnworld/index.html
Everything I clicked on there appeared to be
associated with a $. I did not see the "Free" .pdf you mention above.
I'm all "harned-out" for today...
Kaptain_Kantrip
First Post
Hmm. It seems I cannot link to pages beyond the storefront. Strange. Sorry about that!
When you go to that link, you should scroll down to Adventures, then click Nasty, Brutish & Short... on the next screen, look down at the right hand side of the page and you will see a note that NB&S now comes with a d20 supplement which can be downloaded free by clicking that text.
Try this link, which will take you to Shadow of Bukrai's d20 Harn Downloads page. Download the d20 Harn Guide (around 45 pages) pdf. This page also offers links to alternative "grim-n-gritty" d20 hit point and combat systems.
http://www.nine.addr.com/guides.htm
When you go to that link, you should scroll down to Adventures, then click Nasty, Brutish & Short... on the next screen, look down at the right hand side of the page and you will see a note that NB&S now comes with a d20 supplement which can be downloaded free by clicking that text.
Try this link, which will take you to Shadow of Bukrai's d20 Harn Downloads page. Download the d20 Harn Guide (around 45 pages) pdf. This page also offers links to alternative "grim-n-gritty" d20 hit point and combat systems.
http://www.nine.addr.com/guides.htm
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Kaptain_Kantrip
First Post
NEWS FLASH!
A new dual-statted HarnMaster/d20 adventure location is available for sale today at CGI's site.
BEJIST: Ancient ruins in a swamp hide a sinister secret! A renegade cult of Navehan assassins dedicated to the worship of a demon bound beneath the ruins. This is definitely higher fantasy than is typical for Harn, and is extremely deadly (ready to tackle 20 or more Monk 1/Rogue 4/Assassin 1, plus high priests and an angry demon "god"? Yipe!).
Bejist includes:
The Temple of Ryikun (two story headquarters of the assassins which features an underground tunnel maze where the assassins hunt down released prisoners to hone their skills).
Caer Harmenal/Amorien Tower: A mighty fortress, now abandoned, whose bowels hold Adlaed the Imprisoned, a mighty demon, and an unstable portal to other worlds.
Info on Naveh, Lord of the Pitch Black Shadows, deity of the assassins. Info on the Paegalin barbarians that surround the area. Detailed history of the area and the cult. Beautiful, functional maps of the buildings and area. For only 13 pages, this is jam-packed, as is typical of many Harn products.
The 13 page pdf is only $3.48 (Visa/Mastercard). A print version is also available at a higher price.
________
Buy it here: http://www.columbiagames.com
A link to order it is right on the main page.
_________
Also available as a pdf: Dunir, a keep and village near a hotly contested border between an evil kingdom and an expansionist republic. 22 pages of excellent detail and adventure seeds.
A new dual-statted HarnMaster/d20 adventure location is available for sale today at CGI's site.
BEJIST: Ancient ruins in a swamp hide a sinister secret! A renegade cult of Navehan assassins dedicated to the worship of a demon bound beneath the ruins. This is definitely higher fantasy than is typical for Harn, and is extremely deadly (ready to tackle 20 or more Monk 1/Rogue 4/Assassin 1, plus high priests and an angry demon "god"? Yipe!).
Bejist includes:
The Temple of Ryikun (two story headquarters of the assassins which features an underground tunnel maze where the assassins hunt down released prisoners to hone their skills).
Caer Harmenal/Amorien Tower: A mighty fortress, now abandoned, whose bowels hold Adlaed the Imprisoned, a mighty demon, and an unstable portal to other worlds.
Info on Naveh, Lord of the Pitch Black Shadows, deity of the assassins. Info on the Paegalin barbarians that surround the area. Detailed history of the area and the cult. Beautiful, functional maps of the buildings and area. For only 13 pages, this is jam-packed, as is typical of many Harn products.
The 13 page pdf is only $3.48 (Visa/Mastercard). A print version is also available at a higher price.
________
Buy it here: http://www.columbiagames.com
A link to order it is right on the main page.
_________
Also available as a pdf: Dunir, a keep and village near a hotly contested border between an evil kingdom and an expansionist republic. 22 pages of excellent detail and adventure seeds.
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