Harry Potter, D&D, and the children's market

[WayneLigon]

A comic book series would be an ideal way to introduce kids to the images and adventures of D&D, and Harry Potter has created a generation of teenage readers for whom fantasy and imagination hasn't gone out of fashion.

The average age of a comic book reader is between 18 and 34; kids mostly stopped reading comics during the second video game upswing due to that, plus rising costs.

Kids don't want non-violent and life-affirming stories. Parents want kids to want that, but it seldom works out that way. That is one part of Rowling's success: she didn't write a story for the parents. Same with the early Disney movies. Snow White seems a light and airy tale untill you see Prince Phillip up there fighting a dragon ten thousand times his size and driving his sword into it's heart.

 

[Glyfair]

That is one part of Rowling's success: she didn't write a story for the parents.

Indeed, I think most enduring entertainment for kids has. It was written for adults to enjoy. It might have been written so they it's kid friendly, but it was written to adult tastes.

I remember the Looney Toons crew stating that the secret of those cartoons were that they wrote what they found funny. I believe Carl Barks did the same think with his Duck books.

 

[Umbran]

Here's a question I have. Except for the publishers and those that get direct monetary benefits, why should anyone care whether RPGs are growing or shrinking?

Because the products that are available to the individual depend upon the market. If the market shrinks, those that are left have fewer products to choose from, and have to go farther out of our way to find them. The smaller the market, the less support games have, in general, and the fewer new games and innovations will be developed.

If all I'm doing is playing out of my old set of books, with the old set of people, this is irrelevant. But if I like seeing stuff I haven't seen before, products with ideas I haven't had yet, and the like, then a smaller market impacts me directly.

 

[Peni Griffin]

Nobody knows why the HP phenomenon happened, but adults were a large part of the phenomenon.

As for whether kids are still finding RPGs - I was recently contacted by a netfriend whose 13-year old ADD boy had reported from camp that he'd become addicted to D&D. She knew I was a gamer and wanted to know what this meant, what it entailed, and what she should do about getting D&D stuff for his birthday.

All generalizations are false. In order to understand declines in a certain sector of the market, you have to understand the market - not a specific market, but the way economics actually works. And nobody does; they just pretend to, and get lucky, or not.

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

Do you think the time may be right for WotC to start publishing products for a younger audience?

Personally I think Gleemax is probably WotC's attempt, and despite the misgivings of many here, the best chance to attract a larger segment of the younger population. Social networking is more accepted and routine among teens and by bringing together people with interests in different games like MtG and D&D, there might be a chance to get people to cross over into something they were uninformed or unsure about.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Here's a question I have. Except for the publishers and those that get direct monetary benefits, why should anyone care whether RPGs are growing or shrinking? I don't get this attitude about "we have to save the industry" or "we have to get the next generation involved."

It's easy: If they abandon RPGs, there will be no new books. Maybe you're content witht he books you have now and will never want to buy new books, but some of us like the idea of being able to be able to buy RPG stuff on 5, 10 years.

Types of recreation come and go with the generations. Enjoy what you have and let the youth enjoy theirs.

Do you realize that if generations had not "forced" younger generations to enjoy the same types of recreation they did, this site would not exist? There are people here on these boards old enough to be my grandparents, maybe even great-grandparents, and I'm also old enough to have children of my own (If I had started early, they would be halfway through elementary school by now). If those who first played would not have shown their kids (and had those kids not shown theirs as well), RPGs would have died out long ago, since I doubt that the first generation players alone would have been enough to sustain.

And that illustrates an important point: it's not really forcing other generations to enjoy the same stuff as we do. Already, there are 3-4 generations playing RPGs, people who have otherwise widely different tastes.
It's quite possible that many younger people would enjoy playing RPGs - you just have to show them.

It's not as if there were no interests that span generations. Look at sports, for example.

 

[JoeBlank]

WotC already has D&D books for children, they're just not gaming products.

There's "A Practical Guide to Dragons," which even though it doesn't have a D&D logo or mention D&D anywhere on it, is "written" by a kender and is clearly describing D&D style chromatic/metallic dragons. And there's the upcoming sequel "A Practical Guide to Monsters," that according to the amazon description discusses (amongst other monsters) yuan-ti.

I think there are also D&D novels geared for children.

So kids are getting hit early with D&D IP, at least. Maybe it will translate to an interest in the game when they get older.

I got my 7-year-old son "A Practical Guide to Dragons" for his birthday, and he loved it. But he has already been playing D&D with his brothers and I.

As others have said, a game marketed to kids will likely fail. Kids want to do activities that they associate with being older than their actual age. Elementary school kids want to do whatever is cool for pre-teens to do, pre-teens want to do teenage activities, and teenagers want to do adult activities.

One can play most adult games at any age, once old enough to understand and grasp the rules. We still play monopoly and other simple board games, and they are not considered children's games. But if you market a game to pre-teens then only elementary school-age kids will want to play it, and even they will start thinking it is a "baby" game by the time they are 10. So your target audience pool has to be constantly renewed, which is best done by advertising, which most RPG companies can not afford.

 

[Storm Raven]

Snow White seems a light and airy tale untill you see Prince Phillip up there fighting a dragon ten thousand times his size and driving his sword into it's heart.

Prince Phillip is in Sleeping Beauty, not Snow White.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Prince Phillip is in Sleeping Beauty, not Snow White.

He's on both, actually. It's always the same prince, he just assumes a different disguise. He's wanted in the Magical Kingdoms as a bigamist.

 

[bento]

It's easy: If they abandon RPGs, there will be no new books. Maybe you're content witht he books you have now and will never want to buy new books, but some of us like the idea of being able to be able to buy RPG stuff on 5, 10 years.

Do you fear that kids will abandon RPGs or just the RPGs you play?

Do you realize that if generations had not "forced" younger generations to enjoy the same types of recreation they did, this site would not exist? There are people here on these boards old enough to be my grandparents, maybe even great-grandparents, and I'm also old enough to have children of my own (If I had started early, they would be halfway through elementary school by now). If those who first played would not have shown their kids (and had those kids not shown theirs as well), RPGs would have died out long ago, since I doubt that the first generation players alone would have been enough to sustain.

I'd like to take your word, but I don't think you have any data to back this up. I'll bet Peni's hypothesis has more to do with the sustained success of gaming during its first 30 years.

And that illustrates an important point: it's not really forcing other generations to enjoy the same stuff as we do. Already, there are 3-4 generations playing RPGs, people who have otherwise widely different tastes.
It's quite possible that many younger people would enjoy playing RPGs - you just have to show them.

I don't think the urge to teach your kids the finer points of AoOs and grapple checks are not without ulterior motives. It IS great when families share pasttimes and play games together, but giving your seven year old a set of dice is loaded with the same unconsious desires some dads have when giving a son his first baseball glove or football. Dads (and a few moms) have the desire to see their kid accomplishing some of the same challenges they did when they were kids, hence the continued interest in sports and scouting. I'm sure a lot of gamer dads would really like to DM the first time their kid kills a beholder!

It's not as if there were no interests that span generations. Look at sports, for example.

Up until 30 years ago sport figures were role models that much of society looked up to; the courage of Jackie Robinson or work ethics of Lou Gherig. Sports provides one of the few social outlets where relative strangers can be togther and feel like they are part of something much larger. Sports plays much of the same rolls we used to feel at local events but that has all but destroyed by national media.

Every generation comes with their own approach to entertainment. What clicks with one generation won't click with another. Changes in style, technology, morals, and other factors will create new things that we can never imagine. I collected baseball cards, read comics and played D&D. My kids collect Pokemon, read novels, and play with their Gameboys. I'd much rather bond over the things that give THEM enjoyment than the other way around.

I'm sure when my kids get more into "fantasy" setting games they'll much rather play WoW or Elder Scroll, with all the bells and whistles, than dad's D&D. If they do show an interest, great - let's play! Otherwise I'll let them enjoy their own things.