Has anyone actually done "chase scale" vehicle combat?

[Felon]

Thanks for the info. Can't say I'm really interested in abstract and simplified vehicle combat rules. I kinda wish somebody would just make the darn maps. With all the D20M publishers out there, I'd have figured somebody would have filled the niche by now.

 

[barsoomcore]

The real problem is that it's hard. Chases, especially at vehicle speeds, can cover vast amounts of territory, and present all sorts of obstacles that are really hard to manage at a foot-by-foot level.

Consider a combat battle map. Most maps are, what, 30 squares across? If that? That's okay on a combat map because A) most characters are only going to move a maximum of 6 squares per round and B) very few characters are ever going to travel in a straight line for a full round (let alone multiple rounds).

But at chase scale, most vehicles are moving 30-odd squares every round (they don't have to decide between moving or acting), AND they're going to be travelling in straight lines round after round, unless the terrain forces turns (which gets pretty silly after the first time you do it).

A 1":50' map would have to be room-sized (120 squares = 10 feet across) in order to supply anything like an exciting chase that lasts more than a round. You can't do it.

Finally, trying to run chases this way just ends up not feeling like a chase. The question of "catching up with" the target doesn't enter into it -- on your turn, you gain 30 squares. On his turn, he pulls away 30 squares. Repeat each round. It's not like chase scenes in the movies where you and the bad guy run neck-and-neck, trying to force the other into a collision or do something tricky.

If you figure out a better way, I'd love to hear about it. But I'm not surprised nobody's made the maps because I don't think there's any market for single-use 10' wide maps.

 

[Felon]

But at chase scale, most vehicles are moving 30-odd squares every round.,

30-odd squares a round? On chase scale, with every squarre being 50 feet? Highway speed is 6-15 squares, which matches up with the rate that characters move on a map at character scale--not to mention that in either city or wilderness, characters aren't likely to constantly move at all-out speed.

AND they're going to be travelling in straight lines round after round, unless the terrain forces turns (which gets pretty silly after the first time you do it).

Again, in a city, roads turn quite often. Why is not moving in straight line silly?

Finally, trying to run chases this way just ends up not feeling like a chase. The question of "catching up with" the target doesn't enter into it -- on your turn, you gain 30 squares. On his turn, he pulls away 30 squares. Repeat each round. It's not like chase scenes in the movies where you and the bad guy run neck-and-neck, trying to force the other into a collision or do something tricky.

Actually, that's where stunts come in, to allow one vehicle to pull away or draw closer. And again, it's kind of odd to assume everybody can constantly move at their top speed in a car chase that has turns, terrain, and obstacles that make it necessary to slow down sometimes. Of course, if you can move at all-out speeds without a problem, then a map probably isn't necessary.

If you figure out a better way, I'd love to hear about it. But I'm not surprised nobody's made the maps because I don't think there's any market for single-use 10' wide maps.

Don't think you've thought this one through. Vehicles don't require a 10' wide map any more than characters do.

EDIT--And hell, even being able to put some maps together to make a larger map isn't that big a deal. Any who considers 10 feet to be "room-sized" must be part of a real intimate gaming group.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

30-odd squares a round? On chase scale, with every squarre being 50 feet? Highway speed is 6-15 squares, which matches up with the rate that characters move on a map at character scale--not to mention that in either city or wilderness, characters aren't likely to constantly move at all-out speed.

No, I disagree with you. In a foot combat situation, players don't move that much every round. They frequently trade full-round attacks, from cover if they used ranged weapons. You don't need all that much space.

Again, in a city, roads turn quite often. Why is not moving in straight line silly?

Not that often. Plus, it's a PitA keeping track of where other non-combatant vehicles are. In fact, Spycraft's chase system is so good because it lets you "create obstacles" when needed, and you can generate a crash with a random car without suspending belief, either.

Actually, that's where stunts come in, to allow one vehicle to pull away or draw closer. And again, it's kind of odd to assume everybody can constantly move at their top speed in a car chase that has turns, terrain, and obstacles that make it necessary to slow down sometimes. Of course, if you can move at all-out speeds without a problem, then a map probably isn't necessary.

Generating all this terrain isn't easy, however. Maybe I need to drive more, but I almost never see the kind of interesting (and nasty) terrain and obstacles that show up in an exciting car chase. Just how many barrels and shattered gravel trucks are you going to put on the road anyway?

 

[Felon]

No, I disagree with you. In a foot combat situation, players don't move that much every round. They frequently trade full-round attacks, from cover if they used ranged weapons. You don't need all that much space.

Cars don't necessarily move that much every round either. With D20M's vehicle combat rules, there's a serious downside to driving at all-out speeds.

Not that often. Plus, it's a PitA keeping track of where other non-combatant vehicles are.

I don't like abstract chases because they lack complexity. One man's complexity is another man's PitA I guess.

And yes, turns occur quite often on a 50 foot scale in a city environ. And more to the point, on a D20M street map they obviously should if the point is to provide a playground for car chases.

Generating all this terrain isn't easy, however. Maybe I need to drive more, but I almost never see the kind of interesting (and nasty) terrain and obstacles that show up in an exciting car chase.

No, you just happen to live in the real world.

 

[Ranger REG]

Anyhoo, I knew something had to be done when I read a description on the WotC site about how to use "chase scale" -- they had this CRAZY system where you kept the hero's car in the center and moved everything around them. It was mind-boggling.

Good if everyone (PCs) is in one vehicle. Bad if multiple PC vehicles.

Nevetheless, Rich Redman's suggestion ain't worse.

P.S. I'll be forwarding the collection agency's letters to you.

 

[Ranger REG]

It's available in print right now, $10.95 for print+PDF, on RPGNow.

It's also going to be distributed to game stores, but not until March.

Then I'll wait 'til March. Hopefully by then, both Hot Pursuit and On Foot will be bundled into one book.

 

[barsoomcore]

Highway speed is 6-15 squares, which matches up with the rate that characters move on a map at character scale--not to mention that in either city or wilderness, characters aren't likely to constantly move at all-out speed.

Well, fair enough. I haven't reviewed those rules in a long time, so I apologise for the inaccuracies in my comments.

You still almost NEVER have characters in combat simply moving 15 squares per round. And every vehicle in a chase is going to move as much as its driver wants it to every round. And 15 squares is still going to get you to the edge of the map if you move two rounds in a straight line (assuming a 30-square map).

And heck, assuming you have a pretty decent Drive skill, there's very little reason to keep your speed under the posted limit -- so 30 squares per round is perfectly reasonable. I mean, if you're willing to accept the -4 penalty for being above 16 squares per round, there's no reason to stay below your absolute top speed (other than turning radius). Which for most vehicles is in the 30 squares range.

Again, in a city, roads turn quite often. Why is not moving in straight line silly?

Sorry, I oversimplified. Obviously turns are not silly per se. But a combination of turns that always keeps you within the same 1500' zone is going to get very contrived-feeling if it goes on for any length of time.

And in a city, roads almost never FORCE a turn within a 1000' foot span. Most downtown areas, for example, are composed of straight roads on a grid -- there are intersections every 3-500' or so, but the roads are most often straight for distances in excess of a mile or more.

If I'm getting pursued by bad guys, I find the nearest straightaway and floor it. This is by far going to be the most common pattern in ANY chase. Of course you can generate scenarios where folks are blocked into a small area full of twisty streets, but if all your chases take place in the medina of Marrakech (with the exits blocked by construction), your game's reality is going to take a nosedive.

Actually, that's where stunts come in, to allow one vehicle to pull away or draw closer.

But stunts don't allow you to do that. Not explicitly. They allow you to move faster or slower, which is different. You can't, for example, travel along at a constant distance from your opponent (which seems to happen all the time in chase scenes) -- instead, the chase system in Modern uses the "you move, I move" pattern where the target pulls away, the pursuer catches up, the target pulls away, the pursuer catches up... and so on.

Which doesn't very well capture the way in which chases are displayed in movies.

And again, it's kind of odd to assume everybody can constantly move at their top speed in a car chase that has turns, terrain, and obstacles that make it necessary to slow down sometimes.

You don't have to CONSTANTLY move at your top speed. If you can do it for ONE ROUND, that's sufficient to blow away a 30-square map. And again, any 30-square map of a standard urban area is going to include perfectly straight roads all the way across the map where a character has no reason to not to exactly that.

Don't think you've thought this one through. Vehicles don't require a 10' wide map any more than characters do.

Well, get making maps then. I mean if it'll work for you, knock yourself out. I tried it and it didn't work AT ALL on the standard-sized combat maps I'd been using for character scale.

In any event, I certainly wouldn't consider publishing maps for a resolution system that even WotC has admitted is largely unworkable.

And I have to take exception to a consistent misapprehension you've been positing:

Can't say I'm really interested in abstract and simplified vehicle combat rules.

I don't like abstract chases because they lack complexity.

Abstract != Simple. Please don't think that Hot Pursuit lacks detail. It allows for all sorts of detail. What it DOESN'T use is absolute positioning, which fits very well with the model I'm going after -- the movie chase scene. Very few movie chases take place within a single well-defined environment. The example I use in the book is the classic chase from Raiders. Watch that chase sometime and tell me if it looks remotely realistic from an environmental perspective. I mean, where the heck are they? One shot they're passing through a construction site, next they're plowing through a forest, and then dry hills, and suddenly they're in the middle of the world's deepest canyon, and then back to forest and then dry hills and then they're in the middle of Cairo.

Is it exciting? Heck yeah. Is it detailed? You betcha, right down to the style of radiator on the truck. Is it abstract? Yes -- or at least in exactly the same way that Hot Pursuit is abstract -- it trades absolute positioning (the world is well-defined and the participants move about within it) for relative positioning (the world is undefined and the participants move relative to one another). What really matters in a chase is how far away the bad guys are and how hard it is to jump into their car so you can wrestle with the driver and save the day.

I reckon.

 

[RangerWickett]

You sir, have just gotten another sale. *wink*