Has anyone used the Companion Spirit?

[KarinsDad]

7d6 (or 9d6) x 8 PCs = 56d6 (or 72d6) damage per day

With 4 characters that's still 28d6 (or 36d6).

That's a heck of a lot of damage. And there's not too many BBEGs that can stand up to that kind of hammering, potentially all in one round.

Except that it is hard to target a BBEG with this much damage with Arc of Lightning in a single round for several reasons:

1) Arc of Lightning targets creatures. If you had 4 or more PCs attempt this tactic in the same round, you would have to have plenty of NPC minions around, otherwise, if a minion dies from one of the attacks, he is now an object and not a creature and cannot be used for other Arc of Lightning spells.

2) It has close range. At level 7, that means 40 feet. Any minion used would have to be both within 40 feet of the BBEG and within 40 of the PC casting the spell. And, the BBEG would have to be within 40 feet of each PC casting the spell.

3) Any minion used would have to not have a PC between it and the BBEG, otherwise, the PC would also take damage.

4) Arc of Lightning is a broken spell to begin with since it does not have a saving throw (trading range for a lack of a saving throw is not balance). So, we really should be using Cone of Cold or some other 4th or 5th level spell. The save DC for any other equivalent 4th level spell is DC 16 and for any 5th level spell is DC 17. This is not that high and BBEGs should save against this most of the time.

5) Arc of Lightning does, however, have spell resistance. Many BBEGs at higher level play have spell resistance, so since the caster level is 7, the chances of getting through any BBEG spell resistance is fairly difficult.

6) This assumes that the BBEG does not get an action between the point in time several PCs cast Arc of Lightning and he get his initiative. Sure, the PCs could ready or delay actions so that they all go at the same time, but that could cause issues of its own.


Also, since we are talking a level 4 spell, a 13th level Druid could cast Empowered Arc of Lightning with level 13 against spell resistance and do 19.5 D6. A single Druid here could do 33% (or 67%) of the damage that all 8 (or 4) PCs do. That's 1 action versus 8 (or 4) actions. Just a few PCs casting higher level spells at the BBEG can do more damage than this tactic.

In the large scheme of things, 8 PCs all attacking a BBEG in the same round could probably do just as much or more damage with their normal attacks as with this tactic. This is only 24.5 points of damage per PC. At level 13, most PCs can dish out that kind of damage (or more) in a single round in one way or another when you consider that the spell casters alone are doing twice as much damage as a single minimum caster level Arc of Lightning (more if the spell is Empowered or Maximized).


And as PCs get higher and higher level, they either have to beef up the Spirit Companion, or it gets less worthwhile. Once they get beyond 16th level, they cannot beef it up anymore (and it becomes less useful at high and Epic levels).

 

[foxwick]

This particular spell/tactic would be made much easier if you cast it using a party member (with Electrical Immunity/Resistance) as one end of the arc - no need for minions. Regardless, there's other spells that can pack a whallop.

Also, to the point about party members being able to deal greater normal damage - why engage in melee and take damage when you can dance around and cast spells out of range?

I think Magical Storage is really cool, but also has a high risk of abuse and cheesy use. It looks like we're going to be trying it out, but we'll need to be careful.

Edit: Oh, and I might add that I'm the Druid in Ogrork's link.

 

[KarinsDad]

Also, to the point about party members being able to deal greater normal damage - why engage in melee and take damage when you can dance around and cast spells out of range?

For that matter, why not have fighter types use bows with special properties and stay out of range of melee?

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

Because we're talking about average characters using Companion Spirit. Of course you can focus all your efforts on developing a better alternative, but the fact remains that Magical Storage can result in some potentially broken tactics, IMO.

 

[KarinsDad]

Because we're talking about average characters using Companion Spirit. Of course you can focus all your efforts on developing a better alternative, but the fact remains that Magical Storage can result in some potentially broken tactics, IMO.

You have yet to illustrate it then.

31.5 points of damage in a mini-area of effect spell * 4 PCs = 126 points of damage in a round.

At 16th level, the party Wizard can do 53 points with any 5th or higher level D6 per level damage spell (assuming a 15D6 damage cap). The party Cleric can do the same. That's 106 points without optimizations like Empower Spell and without the damage that the Rogue (who could either sneak attack or use a Wand of Arc of Lightning with UMD) and the Fighter could do.

The reason it works out this way is that the spell in Magical Storage is at minimum caster level, but when you acquire the level when you can cast that level of spell, the PCs are almost at double that minimum caster level and have higher level spells than that. So, 4 PCs * 9/16 level = just a little bit more than 2 PCs * 16/16 level. And as the PCs continue to go higher level, the ratio changes more in favor of the 2 PCs.

And remember, one PC gave up a maximum caster level spell in order for all 4 PCs to gain a minimum caster level spell.

In order to achieve this "mega-damage" you are talking about, the PCs spent 6000 XP each or almost 40% of a level worth of XP. That means that they will be one level lower than they would have been, about 40% of the time. Sure, that percentage will drop as they get higher levels, but the fact is that the players gave up the enjoyment of playing a PC one level higher for a significant portion of their gaming time, just to acquire this ability. They also spent 13000 GP each or 5% of their wealth to gain this once per day ability (and the abilities of their other benefit category) each.


And, there are downsides to this that we have discovered. Any cohort in the party is 2 levels lower than the associated PC. That means that if the cohort joins the spirit companion, 2/3rds of the time, the cohort cannot gain the advantage of the Magical Storage spell unless the party puts a lower level spell into it. So, the cohort pays the same gold and XP to add the spirit companion, but loses the ability of one of the two benefit categories a significant portion of the time.


This is not overwhelming. And, it is not free. And, with skills like UMD and Craft Wand, the PCs could already achieve similar results. This is just a lot more flexible than doing it the UMD way. And, we are talking about an ability that is once per day per PC. So sure, it may swing the tide of battle in a single combat. But, what about the other combats during the day?


On the other hand, it is fun. A lot of fun. A real lot of fun. Fighters and Rogues normally do not get to cast any spells. So, it is fun for a Fighter to once per day do a Cure Wounds spell. It is fun for the Rogue to once per day do an Arc of Lightning spell. And fun is what the game is all about.

Overwhelming? No.

Fun? Absolutely.


PS. In our current game of 4 PCs and 2 NPC cohorts, all of the characters except one can cast spells (and even use spell-like abilities) already. An extra spell per day in such a group is not even noticed.

 

[Sammael]

I gave the companion spirit with communication abilities (all 5? levels of them) as a special reward (no XP costs) to the party for completing a certain part of the campaign. They've had it for about 25 sessions now, and I haven't noticed any balance issues. They've used it to great effect a couple of times, and I feel that it resolves a lot of metagame issues (telepathy + status).

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

You have yet to illustrate it then.

I call 56d6 points of damage in a round overwhelming. No attack rolls needed. You don't even have to be engaged in melee, you can be sitting up a tree if you want to.

If you disagree with me, that's fine. But 56d6 damage (or even 28-42d6 damage for a more reasonably sized party of 4-6) doesn't seem very balanced to me.

I don't have a problem with the whole companion spirit idea, it's just the Magical Storage version that is prone to abuse.

 

[KarinsDad]

I call 56d6 points of damage in a round overwhelming. No attack rolls needed. You don't even have to be engaged in melee, you can be sitting up a tree if you want to.

If you disagree with me, that's fine. But 56d6 damage (or even 28-42d6 damage for a more reasonably sized party of 4-6) doesn't seem very balanced to me.

I don't have a problem with the whole companion spirit idea, it's just the Magical Storage version that is prone to abuse.

Your 56D6 one round per day damage scenario includes 8 13th level PCs.

I could have 3 13th level PCs do 58.5 D6 just by having them be 3 Sorcerers (and/or Wizards and/or Clerics) with the Empowered Spell feat. And, they can do this more than once per day each. That leaves me with 5 other 13th level PCs to do even more damage in that round. And, they do not have to give up about 40% of a levels worth of their XP each and 5% of their gold to accomplish this.

Personally, I think you are making a mountain out of a molehill for a once per day minimum caster level spell per PC. You are forgetting just how much damage the normal spell casters in a party can do without the companion spirit. Ditto for healing. Ditto for any other set of spells.

 

[Andras]

4) Arc of Lightning is a broken spell to begin with since it does not have a saving throw (trading range for a lack of a saving throw is not balance). So, we really should be using Cone of Cold or some other 4th or 5th level spell. The save DC for any other equivalent 4th level spell is DC 16 and for any 5th level spell is DC 17. This is not that high and BBEGs should save against this most of the time.

5) Arc of Lightning does, however, have spell resistance. Many BBEGs at higher level play have spell resistance, so since the caster level is 7, the chances of getting through any BBEG spell resistance is fairly difficult.

You have that backwards, Arc of Lightnng allows a Reflex save for half, but as a instant Conjuration, does not allow SR.

I'm not saying it changes any points, I just wanted to make a clarification of the spell.

 

[KarinsDad]

You have that backwards, Arc of Lightnng allows a Reflex save for half, but as a instant Conjuration, does not allow SR.

I'm not saying it changes any points, I just wanted to make a clarification of the spell.

Opps. Interposed those two. Thanks.

Course, this brings up another "Instantaneous Conjuration" of elements issue. Just like the Orb spells. Bogus. :\