Has D&D become too...D&Dish?

[shilsen]

There are big differences between music and literature too, but a genre that starts eating itself is still one disappearing up it's own behind. D&D isn't an exception.

Well, you're the one defining it as a genre eating itself, so that's a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy. Personally I think of it as a genre becoming more self-aware and self-reflexive. Which is true of a number of literary genres (can't speak of music, since I know crap all about it, but I do teach literature) that have survived quite well.

 

[Hussar]

I'm confused. Rounser, what is wrong with a genre becoming self-reflexive? Shouldn't all genres self examine at some point in their existence? We've had thirty years of DnD as a genre, pretty much ignoring the points brought up here. How much longer should we continue to ignore the elephant in the corner?

 

[rounser]

Which is true of a number of literary genres (can't speak of music, since I know crap all about it, but I do teach literature) that have survived quite well.

Yes, I think your choice of the word "survived" is appropriate.

D&D doesn't exist in a vacuum. Despite what some folks are saying in this thread, it reflects - and yes, to a certain extent redefines - the same swords & sorcery fantasy genres found in novels and (to a much lesser extent) films, and the mythology that the S&S genre relies upon for "mythic resonance". One of D&D's core strengths is that to a certain extent it does reflect this pulp fantasy S&S genre, and I think it can be attributed to much of it's success. If D&D begins to reflect nothing but itself, which disappearing up it's own behind implies by using it's own idiosyncracies and artefacts as a model to develop further idiosyncracies and artefacts, one of the cornerstones that it was based on erodes away, and the connections to the novels and mythology become further abstracted.

To a certain extent this is inevitable (all games seem to have artefacts - compromises of what they're modelling so that they work as a game), but to emphasise them and embrace them such that the game becomes a model for the world is perverse, and enters Order of the Stick territory (and although that might sound cool to some, think on what makes OotS poking fun at D&D so funny). To a certain extent this has already happened (e.g. where do you find clerics but in D&D), but I unlike you I don't see this as a good thing.

To me, the point at which the simulation defines what is being simulated isn't maturation, but rather losing the plot.

 

[rounser]

I'm confused.

Again? Really? I suspect that you just disagree, and by saying you're confused you're trying to imply that my argument makes no sense. Whatever.

 

[shilsen]

To a certain extent this has already happened (e.g. where do you find clerics but in D&D), but I unlike you I don't see this as a good thing.

To me, the point at which the simulation defines what is being simulated isn't maturation, but rather losing the plot.

I guess we're just going to have to wait ten years and see whether D&D survives or not. Of course, if it does, you can always play the "wrong bad fun" card then

 

[rounser]

I guess we're just going to have to wait ten years and see whether D&D survives or not. Of course, if it does, you can always play the "wrong bad fun" card then

It'll survive alright, I'd just prefer the mainstream of it not to go too far off the rails. You're welcome to your bad wrong fun (with other consenting adults) in the privacy of your own home.

 

[Hussar]

Again? Really? I suspect that you just disagree, and by saying you're confused you're trying to imply that my argument makes no sense. Whatever.

No, truthfully, I'm confused. I fail to understand why examining the conceits of genre is bad.

Yes, I disagree, but, I am honestly trying to see where you are coming from with this. Why is it superior to simply ignore the conceits of genre?

One of D&D's core strengths is that to a certain extent it does reflect this pulp fantasy S&S genre, and I think it can be attributed to much of it's success.

Yes, I agree that this is ONE of DND's core strengths. However, it is only one. Pulp fantasy is certainly a source of inspiration. Then again, so is mythology (most of the clerical spells are pulled straight from myth and legend), high fantasy (the races, wizard as hero), and a host of other sources.

Again, why should pulp S&S, although perhaps your favourite genre, be seen as the primary inspiration for the game?

 

[rounser]

I fail to understand why examining the conceits of genre is bad.

It's fine to examine the conceits, it's just that some of the attempts to "fix" these inconsistencies and idiosyncracies involve a cure worse than the disease.

Again, why should pulp S&S, although perhaps your favourite genre, be seen as the primary inspiration for the game?

I don't know what version of the game you play on the moon, but down here on earth, D&D's implied setting is firmly rooted in sword and sorcery fantasy.

 

[Victim]

Having those ideas is fine; the idea that those ideas are somehow harder to poke holes in than worlds that do not use those ideas is not. IMHO, the "technology" involved in D&D is not the spells per se, but the casters, and you have no way to control them once they are created. If our telephones only did what they wanted to do when they thought it served their interests best, I think we'd have fewer telephones.

In other words, this is a change in style, not a "maturation".

RC

Or you could compare the casters with the skilled scientists, engineers, and business people who invent, implement and fund our own technologies. We don't exactly have these people under strict controls and they do affect major changes in the world by serving their own interests. But that's why they're so highly valued.

 

[rounser]

Or you could compare the casters with the skilled scientists, engineers, and business people who invent, implement and fund our own technologies. We don't exactly have these people under strict controls and they do affect major changes in the world by serving their own interests. But that's why they're so highly valued.

Perhaps some folks would really rather be playing D20 Modern, but aren't admitting it to themselves because it's not D&D, so are attempting to change D&D into some equivalent of that.