Has D&D become too...D&Dish?

[Spatula]

I see now that I've come late to the party and my points have already been made. Back to the rounser vs Hussar match!

 

[Aaron L]

This is what Unearthed Arcana was for, and why they should do more books similar to it. It is possible for D&D to get drowned in its on D&Disms.

Thats why people make houserules for thier own settings. (I certainlty have) My world of Alterra isnt Greyhawk, and I have altered the rules to reflect that.

One thing that Id be really glad for is some good guidelines for a lower magic item game, and how best to adjust monster CRs to match.

But I also think that Eberron was a great idea, taking the rules that exist and extropolating them out to what a world based on them would be like.

A Forgotten Realms book of "houserules" making allowances for the Realms to deviate from the core of D&D would be good too. (I mean more than the FRCS and the rest already do) Even just noting what variant rules from UA would fit best in the Realms or something would be nice.


Yes, it is possible for the game to get bogged down in its own gamisms, but completely ignoring the consequences of the rules in world design and handwaving edverything isnt something I would ever want.

 

[Hussar]

There has to be widespread industrial magic in order to ignore its effect. Until 3E, the RAW rather discouraged widespread industrial magic due to hoop-jumping. Since we have discussed in the past the difficulties of item creation pre-3E, I feel certain you'd agree that this sort of thing wouldn't have cropped up under the magical "rules" of those worlds.

Before I get to the quote, let me say that I do agree with most of what RC is saying. And you have no idea how much that bewilders me to say.

There are two issues here though. I wasn't really talking about the existence of magic items and the creations of magic items. The simple cost of such makes them out of reach for the majority of the people. It takes a fairly significant town to get a 9000 gp Decanter of Endless Water, and by that time, it's effects aren't all that great anyway. There are simply too many people.

There is another issue though. The existence of permanent spells at low level. Continual Light/Flame, Animate Dead, Make Whole (in 3e, I used Summon Monster spells to keep bringing in Formian Workers to cast multiple Make Whole spells to repair a small castle for free - a hole that was plugged in 3.5), Bless Water, Soften Earth or Stone, healing of all forms, and I'm sure there are others, are all very low level spells, quite possibly available in fairly small settlements.

These spells all have the ability to change a setting greatly. Since they are cast by low level characters, control issues aren't really a problem. A third level wizard or cleric isn't all that powerful. These spells also existed in previous incarnations of the game, but their effects were largely ignored. At least current design philosophy seems to be taking these somewhat into account.

Of course, this is also ignoring things like animal husbandry. With the huge number of potentially extremely useful creatures out there, it's a little surprising that we don't see more of this. Hippogriff cavalry for example. Or even just using hippogriff in a similar way to WWI airplanes - spotting and messengers. I could see this sort of thing morphing into a sort of Air Cavalry usage similar to modern helicopter units. Troop transport for small numbers of troops and supplies.

The mind boggles.

 

[SSquirrel]

I've actually gone something like 180 degrees on this. After a while of playing 3.x, and reading threads here, I really felt like cracking the earlier editions again. It felt like something had been lost. Now, while I deny that this is purely "nostaligia" (as some demand it to be), I realize that what I had begun to do was buy into this that the current edition can only be played in one way. Simply not true.RC

Thus we have seen RC grow as a gamer

 

[Raven Crowking]

Thus we have seen RC grow as a gamer

Nah. Thus we have seen RC learn to disregard the constant whining that goes on from a vocal minority. My gaming has changed at all. Well, except for the complete rules rewrite.

RC

 

[Raven Crowking]

These spells all have the ability to change a setting greatly. Since they are cast by low level characters, control issues aren't really a problem. A third level wizard or cleric isn't all that powerful. These spells also existed in previous incarnations of the game, but their effects were largely ignored. At least current design philosophy seems to be taking these somewhat into account.

Control issues are still a factor. First off, how do you know that the person casting the low-level spell you want isn't capable of more. Second off, there are some low-level spells that can be used to great effect in a military or political manner. Finally, allowing low-level characters to prosper is how you make higher-level characters.

If you really wanted to create a setting that followed the logical results of the game, governments would work very hard to constrain spellcasters.

And why all the NPC classes? Why don't the farmers take levels in Rogue instead? The mind boggles.

 

[Numion]

And why all the NPC classes? Why don't the farmers take levels in Rogue instead? The mind boggles.

Maybe they know that if they take PC classes they'll get sucked into all kinds of dangerous adventures?

Or all those rural villages where everyone was a rogue perished to abnormally high levels of thievery. No one was farming, instead just stealing from others.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Maybe they know that if they take PC classes they'll get sucked into all kinds of dangerous adventures?

Or all those rural villages where everyone was a rogue perished to abnormally high levels of thievery. No one was farming, instead just stealing from others.

If we assume that examining the implications of the RAW is "maturity" then these are valid questions. I used those examples to show that it isn't so. The RAW cannot possibly take into account every campaign setup out there, and it is the synthesis of the campaign setting and the Rules In Use that is important.

Nothing in the RAW mandates that rogues go adventuring, or steal. They are simply able to be better commoners than commoners are. Likewise, why would anyone have warriors when they could have fighters, rangers, and barbarians? The D&D demographics that Hussar uses as a cushion against the illogic of magitech is itself illogical.

Which is okay. But let's not pretend that it's the height of logic or somehow more "mature".

RC

 

[Deadguy]

Eberron helped me enormously in picturing the whys and wherefores of NPC and PC classes. Simply put the odds are that the farmer is a Commoner simply because he lacks the potential to be anything else. Just as in real life, where many people aren't cut out to be doctors or artists or politicians. People in the game don't choose their classes; their circumstances and their aptitudes choose the 'class' that best represents their role. This automatically makes PCs somewhat special, since like the other possessors of PC classes, they are the few percent of the population who have that special something to reach greater heights than the typical person (since most are, of course, Commoners).

Anyway, back to discussions about the genre conventions of D&D...

 

[Numion]

Nothing in the RAW mandates that rogues go adventuring, or steal. They are simply able to be better commoners than commoners are. Likewise, why would anyone have warriors when they could have fighters, rangers, and barbarians? The D&D demographics that Hussar uses as a cushion against the illogic of magitech is itself illogical.

Which is okay. But let's not pretend that it's the height of logic or somehow more "mature".

RAW is pretty much silent on the inner workings of peasant minds. Maybe they are not min-maxers, and just enjoy the challenge of playing (well, living, really) a sub-optimal class. Besides, the rules are silent on reproduction, so with the population unable to do that, most kinds of civilizations would be impossible.

I think the real answer is that the NPCs aren't given a choice as to what class they become. They are slaves to the population class-level demographics in DMG, wanted they that or not. That's RAW!