Has D&D become too...D&Dish?

[Raven Crowking]

If that was the case in a D&D world, adventuring would hardly be possible. If some gods flip out at the upgrade of torch'n'lantern streetlights to magical streetlights (a luddite god or whatever), wouldn't the gods of orcs and kobolds stomp down on anyone killing them? Like adventurers?

I mean .. killing a kobold would be a lot bigger offense to kobold god, than the upgrade of a lantern to an everburning torch to a darkness god. Because, lantern and everburning torch give about the same amount of light.

The usual answer to the first point is gobbledegook about the Orc gods wanting their followers to be tough. Or that the kobold god just isn't powerful enough to wreak vengeance because the human/elf/dwarf gods protect the adventurers. IMC, the orcs believe that they go to prepare for war against the Celestials in the afterlife...life is just to toughen them up for this future conflict.

The answer to the second point is htat a lantern is "mortal"; it has a lifespan, it is lit, it gives light, and it "dies" when the oil runs out. The everburning torch is "immortal". The god of darkness/night/whatever may overlook the occasional everburning torch, but when you make an industry of it you spit in her face.

(And, yes, BTW, if you attempted the genocide of a species, you very well should face that species' protector(s)!)

 

[Geron Raveneye]

If that was the case in a D&D world, adventuring would hardly be possible. If some gods flip out at the upgrade of torch'n'lantern streetlights to magical streetlights (a luddite god or whatever), wouldn't the gods of orcs and kobolds stomp down on anyone killing them? Like adventurers?

I mean .. killing a kobold would be a lot bigger offense to kobold god, than the upgrade of a lantern to an everburning torch to a darkness god. Because, lantern and everburning torch give about the same amount of light.

Isn't that why adventurers continually have to beat back kobolds, orcs and goblins led by big chieftains, dark priests and evil wizards trying to overrun civilized countries?

At least the thread starts really covering the "sacred cows" of D&D adventuring, and why they happen.

 

[Lanefan]

Having just read over this ever-lengthening thread, I have but one question:

This elephant in the corner that people keep referring to...why hasn't somebody killed it yet? That's some perfectly good ExP sittin' there!

::draws sword::

"CHAAAAAAAARRRGGE!!!!!"


Lanefan

 

[Numion]

The answer to the second point is htat a lantern is "mortal"; it has a lifespan, it is lit, it gives light, and it "dies" when the oil runs out. The everburning torch is "immortal". The god of darkness/night/whatever may overlook the occasional everburning torch, but when you make an industry of it you spit in her face.

That would certainly be a funny backstory for a campaign world:

"What be this here wasteland?"

"It was once a grand city, a jewel of an ancient, glorius civilization .. brought down by the hubris of the last emperor."

"Let me guess .. it was the same old: opening portals to abyss and deals with the demons, right?"

"Nope. It was his public works program!"

I know you're at least semi-serious, but I just don't see the D&D gods as taking offense to streetlights.

 

[Nightfall]

*thinks Hussar is ignoring him...* You're allowed to disagree Hussar. I just will disagree with your disagreement.

Btw that page only said "consorters with Slacerians". It didn't say "Wizards were taught by Slacerians." Just that they "infringed on" the power of druid-sorcerers and sorcery in general.

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

Continual flame = 50.01gp, 20’/40’, permanent (1 ever)

Continual flame = 0gp per year (plus 50gp once)

The scroll cost for Continual flame is 425 gp. That should probably be your comparison number. A comparison might be if you could buy a car for $20,000 that runs on gas, or one for $120,000 that never needs gas, which would you buy?

In most cases, the $20,000, because only the very rich can afford the luxury of the $120,000 car. Certainly I couldn't get the more expensive one. The same would apply to a D&D world, I'd expect. 425 gp is about equal to the yearly wage of a skilled laborer - someone with a +6 profession skill eaning 8 gp a week.

 

[Raven Crowking]

That would certainly be a funny backstory for a campaign world:

"What be this here wasteland?"

"It was once a grand city, a jewel of an ancient, glorius civilization .. brought down by the hubris of the last emperor."

"Let me guess .. it was the same old: opening portals to abyss and deals with the demons, right?"

"Nope. It was his public works program!"

I know you're at least semi-serious, but I just don't see the D&D gods as taking offense to streetlights.

Nor do you have to. The point is not, and never has been, that this is how a campaign world must be, but merely that this is as likely as, say, magitech. BTW, this is exactly what happened to Atlantis.

 

[Quasqueton]

The scroll cost for Continual flame is 425 gp. That should probably be your comparison number.

That's hilarious.

"Hmm, should we have the mage spend whole his day making a single scroll for 425gp, or go out and spend 12 seconds casting two continual flame spells for 50gp each?"

Sounds like typical government buracracy thinking.

You know, I really haven't cared about this thread. I just did the comparison numbers out of curiosity, for myself. I posted them for anyone who'd be interested. It's quite entertaining to see people work out reasons why the concept wouldn't work -- mages running around with dispel magic, mages charging 425gp for a scroll instead of just casting the spell, gods sending servants on unholy quests to destroy streetlights, . . . all quite humorous.

Quasqueton

 

[Raven Crowking]

No more humorous than clerics and wizards running around performing free public service, or a source of food energy (magic) existing in a world that is never exploited, or the idea of D&D gods that interact with the world but fail to do so when their interests are at stake.

BTW, Q, you're missing the point. The point is not that magic streetlights cannot work, merely that it does not automatically follow that they would work, or that, if they did, it would be a good idea.

Magitech is a very real possibility, and can make for an interesting world. But it is not the only possibility, nor is it the only possibility that can be derived logically from the RAW. It is a stylistic difference -- nothing more, nothing less.

At least, IMHO.

RC

 

[JohnSnow]

"Hey, Bob, there's another streetlight. Call the mage and have him snuff it out. Oh, wait, it's a normal oil-burning lamp. Nevermind. Let's just walk through the alley."

Try this conversation between a pair of thieves (we'll call them Joe and Bob):

Joe: "Hey Bob, there's another streetlight. Snuff it."
Bob: (after checking it out) "...ummm, Joe, I can't! It's magic."
Joe: "Awww, damnit! That's the third alley this week...farking mayor and his farking magical lights. I tell ya, something's gotta be done or there's not gonna be anyplace left to hide in the whole city!"
Bob: "Yeah...maybe the guild should do something."

That's the difference...most lights can be temporarily PUT OUT by any smart thief. Continual Flames can't. So...instead, you make them go away.

The point everyone's making is that ubiquitous magical light can be very mood-breaking in a game. Some of us like the notion of medieval feeling cities lit by the guttering flames of torches and lamps. It's just cool.

Magical streetlights...not so much. As an occasional thing, sure. But everywhere? Just doesn't work for me. It's not a verisimilitude problem so much as an atmosphere problem.

It's the same issue I have with the various dead raising spells and the ones that cure disease. It's all fine and dandy that they're pricey, but their very existence means that kings (who have the resources of a whole nation!) and most rich preople would never die prematurely. So, unlike the poor, the rich aren't subject to disease or premature death. Can you even comprehend how that might change a society?

It's simply mind-boggling to try to carry the RAW to their logical conclusion.