Has the DMs job evolved in regard to "winging-it"?

How hard is this to understand? It is mathematically the same thing!

The formula:

ToHit (AC, Cl=Fi3) =

{AC = 10...-1}: 18 - AC
{AC = -2...-7}: 20
{AC = -8...}: 13 - AC

is the same thing as:

ToHit (AC, Cl=Fi3) = AC - 3 ?

I find this very hard to understand. :confused:

In the formulas, the stat bonus has been disregarded as it applies in both cases.

As we seem to have completely different view of these things, I think I'll stop this discussion right here.
 

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Nope. The system is not only just as unified, it is in essence the same system as in 3e. The latter gets presented in the 3.5 PHB with separate tables for each class, on as many different pages.
Saving throws? A table in 1e, tables in 3e. If you want to memorize all the formulas, then knock yourself out with either set. If I'm going to refer to a book, how having it all on one page is "less unified" just boggles. A single lookup gives the actual roll needed in 1e. How is that less of a "system"?
That's a pretty ridiculous argument. Yes, a system that makes me roll a d1000 and look up fifty tables to resolve every action may be just as 'unified' as a system that makes me roll a d20 and add a single modifier for every action.
But which system do you think makes it easier to 'wing it'?

For me, the reliance on tables is one of the most important factors in deciding if a system works for me. E.g. Rolemaster may be an intriguing, very realistic system, but I wouldn't want to ever run it as a DM. It's a system that would work nicely as the basic for a CRPG.

Tables aren't tables, though. E.g. both Runequest and D&D 3e have tables. But all of these tables follow easily remembered and calculated formulas. They're given as a convenience rather than because they're actually required.
 

What is "the crunch"?
crunch = game mechanics/rules

Okay, I think I need to clarify what I meant and revise my original point.

1e/2e didn't have complete rule coverage. Both system _required_ a lot of 'winging it' from the DM. The attraction of 3e was that there was a rule for everything. So for a DM who was introduced to the game with 3e, 'winging it' wasn't necessarily something, he would be comfortable with.

Let's say 1e/2e had 20% rules coverage. Now, if in 3e you have to throw out 80% of the rules to be able to easily 'wing it', 3e has no advantage over any of the previous editions.

That's what I meant with my post. However, I just realized (after writing my precedent post) that it isn't really that it's more _difficult_ to 'wing it' in 3e, it's that you have to ignore/throw out a larger amount of rules to do so.

In a system requiring a die roll and looking up 50 tables to determine the result of an action it's just as easy to 'wing it' as in a system requiring only a die roll and adding a single modifier. But in the former case you're omitting an incredible amount of complexity and 'richness' while in the latter case your ad-hoc decision might actually be pretty close to the result you would have gotten had you simply used the rules as written.

Does that make sense?
 

That's what I meant with my post. However, I just realized (after writing my precedent post) that it isn't really that it's more _difficult_ to 'wing it' in 3e, it's that you have to ignore/throw out a larger amount of rules to do so.

OK, that makes sense.

I started with AD&D in 1980, so I became accustomed to using house rules.

Multi-classing and prestige classes made things like skills points, save progressions and hit points time consuming to figure, and all that figuring added nothing to the game. We made the following fixed for added simplicity.

All skills were condensed down to 20, all classes got six per level, and there were no class skills.

All save progressions were Level/2.

Hit points were Strength + Level x Constitution/2.
 

How easy a game is to "wing" is a function of how much material the GM must remember and mentally juggle without prep work. When winging 1e, 2e, or 3e, I would keep a list of predetermined statistics for various monsters.

Obviously, all gaming systems have some creatures that are easier or harder to run well, and this is directly dependent on the number of options the creature has on a round-to-round basis. The inclusion of feats makes 3e monsters harder to play well, especially at higher levels, essentially making all monsters slightly more difficult to run than they were in older systems.

Wealth by Level guidelines, where they exist, factor into the difficulty of placing "winged" treasures. In all systems, it is a wise GM who minimizes "winged" treasures (so that he can consider the impact before placing better items), but if the system is based around the idea that characters have X treasure minimum, too much stingy winging can leave them underpowered, and too generous winging can leave them overpowered.

Complex rules can also make winging it difficult; the more the GM must remember rules-wise, the harder it is to wing. How difficult is it to open that door? To pick that lock? The less you have to memorize to set those sorts of values, the easier a system is to wing.

The complexity of options that are the same in a pre-planned or a winged scenario (clerics turning undead, for example) have nothing to do with how hard winging it is; only with how difficult the system is to run whether prepped or not.

Of course, the GM is well within his rights in any system to simply "make it up". But doing so has, again, little to do with how difficult it is to "wing it" within any given system. That just demonstrates that it is easier to ignore the system when winging it, and for some systems you will ignore the rules more often than with others.


RC

EDIT: BTW, in 1e, the saving throws of a character could be marked on his character sheet -- there was a place for this -- as well as his attack matrix. The DM screen had both the attack matrixes and saving throws printed on it for ease of reference. I never knew anyone who found this difficult at all when playing earlier editions of D&D.
 
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All editions it is pretty easy to pull a fairly appropriate monster out of a monster manual or rule book and run an encounter on the fly.

NPCs get a little more difficult, level 1 warriors are easy to pull out stats for but higher level ones can vary a lot with big impacts.

Basic to 2e AD&D were mechanically simple for warrior types, AC, HD, hp, THACO and Damage and you are pretty set to go. Spellcasters and magic made it more mechanically complex both for stat blocks and option wise to run.

In 3e NPC stuff gets a little more complicated with lots of semi long lasting buffs of various sorts, feats adding in conditional modifiers and options, and issues of appropriate level of magic gear to be available for loot after defeating the NPC. Coming up with NPCs to combat quickly can be fairly tricky if you don't have available sources of statblocks.

In 4e the high level of encouraged reskinning and divorce of monster/NPC stat blocks from things like magic items means it is easy to take say an aboleth stat block and call it a human slime-mist mage using his dominating aquamancy. This could be done in earlier editions but works particularly well with the design ethos of 4e and 4e monsters.

Winging it also usually means non combat stuff though like misinterpreting clues leading to the party chasing unprepared for false leads, trying to get things done in unexpected ways, or creating plots on the fly based in part on PC actions. A lot of this is just DM style and comfort level which is entirely edition independent.

Winging it for adjudication can be DM fiat or judgment calls or mechanical resolutions. For mechanical resolutions Basic usually had saving throws, ability checks, and thief skills; AD&D added in nonweapon proficiencies along with ability specific subsystems (bending bars, reaction adjustments, etc.); 3e had skill/ability checks using a unified system, and 4e has a similar but universally improving with level skill system with group skill challenges.
 


Where the heart of the game really lies is in the situation and the players' choices in response (which in turn elicit responses from the environment, and so on back around).

What one really needs is a visualization of the circumstances, clearly enough conveyed to the players to inform their decisions. Game-mechanical formalisms are useful -- and thus needful -- only to the extent that they facilitate some interaction between the players and the world.

The resources in some games for "building" monsters and NPCs remind me of the design sequences for vehicles in the Striker miniatures rules (part of GDW's Traveller line) -- or such successors as Fire, Fusion and Steel or GURPS Vehicles.

That kind of thing makes some sense in a wargame (although vehicles ready to use would be more appreciated by many players). In the context of a role-playing game, such devices slip away into being basically a solitaire game for the GM. (It may be for players as well, but that is not really the matter at hand.)

The essential tool kit for improvisation is a stock of inspirations.

I get a lot of leverage out of the accumulation of "sense of place" as a campaign progresses. There's less need for detailed itemizations and maps when one can use reasonable inference (and perhaps a few dice-rolls) based on general knowledge. That such knowledge exists in the first place allows players also to learn and use it.

Also tremendously useful are fleshed-out NPCs. When the dynamics of relationships are in the game, I find that at least one answer to the question of "What happens next?" usually follows very naturally from what has happened so far.

Stock locales (e.g., maps of typical buildings) and characters (e.g., stats for typical soldiery, which may serve -- as in real life! -- once as a baron's levies and again as bandits) are another resource one tends to collect over the courses of campaigns.

Lists and Tables generally are nifty to have. Names of all sorts (people, places, magic weapons) can sometimes inspire creation of the named; an online "Vancian Spell Name Generator" comes to mind. In any case, evocative names can be -- YMMV, perhaps in inverse proportion to the number of apostrophes involved -- an aid not only to flavor but also to ease of play.

Among the extremely various material in the first-edition Dungeon Masters Guide is Appendix I: Dungeon Dressing (Miscellaneous Items and Points of Semi-Interest for Corridors and Unpopulated Areas or to Round out Otherwise Drab Places). That series of tables covers: General (mostly trash); Air; Air Currents; Odors; Unexplained Sounds and Weird Noises; Furnishing and Appointments, General; Religious Articles and Furnishings; Torture Chamber Furnishings; Magic-User Furnishings; General Description of Container Contents; Miscellaneous Utensils and Personal Items; Clothing and Footwear; Jewelry and Items Typically Bejewelled; Food and Drink; Condiments and Seasonings. Appendix K: Describing Magical Substances is a collection of descriptive words for Appearance/ Consistency, Transparency, Taste and/ or Odor; and Colors. The potential utility of a thesaurus may be evident.

Especially when designing dungeon levels, I like to start with a "brainstorming" session. I will sit down for a while and just write down whatever ideas for encounters and whatnot happen to come up, without getting into much detail. A key is not to analyze whether an idea is "good" or "bad" -- even for the setting (e.g., dungeon level) at hand -- but just to jot it down and quickly move on. I may have a target of, say, 50 entries in a given period.

What I don't use I often add to my "bits box" of scenario-building material, along with ideas that come to me in the course of daily life. The real world can provide a lot of ideas as well, and clippings from newspaper or 'Net may find their way into my notebook.

Genre fiction pretty often comes to mind, but it can be tricky to implement such inspirations. There is often difficulty in player familiarity, and sometimes things that seemed fresh enough at the first encounter have since become stale clichés. Then again, they may be "classics" worth revisiting in moderation. Sometimes the problem is just the opposite: players unfamiliar with the reference may not 'get' it.

How much players 'get' and 'get into' the game can also depend on compelling presentation. When I consider applications of the art of 'storytelling', plot -- normally the first requisite in literature -- falls by the wayside, for the discovery of what happens is my purpose in play. At any rate, a plotted scenario is probably the epitome of preparation, at the opposite extreme from "winging it".

The use of language is very important. Drawings, lighting, models, music, props, and more -- wherever one's inclination, talents and time lean in creative expression -- can make the difference between 'good' and 'excellent'.

All of the above strike me as more important "irons in the fire" than carefully calculating game-specific mechanical details. That tends to get in the way of keeping the game moving, which is in my experience a top priority.

Where I think the DM's job has really evolved is simply in a direction away from "winging it". Besides an increased emphasis on using canned adventures, I see a greater tendency to emulate those commercial products in "home brewed" scenarios. There has been a feedback loop of synergies, so that what players tend to expect of DMs -- and DMs of themselves -- has changed radically from the early years of D&D.
 
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