Has the magic gone?

[sidonunspa]

Well,

I have been running a 4e game for three weeks now, the more we play the more restrictive the system feels… am I the only one that feels this way?

The “wow” of the game seems already gone; it almost feels like anything you do outside the box (or hell well within the box, as in the case of the warrior tossing a Javelin instead of making a double move to get into melee) seems to punish you. I have already incorporated house rules to spice things up and expect to add quite a bit more.

And don’t say “It’s a new game all new games are like that” because with 3.0 we ran it out of the box, with no house rules for almost a year.

Now I find the game designer in me taking over, thinking about writing my own 3.X-4.X hybrid system taking the best of worlds and creating a flexible, fun, fast game. With more “yes you can” then “hum ok give me a second to create a house rule”

Has anyone else started to do anything like this?

 

[Appleseeth]

I don't know about a hybrid system, but there definitely seems to be a constriction in options. I know I was one of the many who were disappointed that there was only going to be 8 classes in the first PH, especially with the smorgasborg of 3.5 classes, and the ease of making new ones. I play in a large group, and it already kinda feels like we've played all the archetypes, in only 4 weeks of play.
That's my 2 cents.

 

[StickPerson]

I'm feeling that way myself (I’m glad I’m not the only one), which makes me feel bad, as I was really looking forward to 4th ed and I have zero interest in going back to 3.5-- that system was played out. I like DM'ing 4th edition that's for sure, and have only done 2-3 play test session to get a feel for the new rules, and two regular campaign sessions with characters my players converted over from our 3.5 game. But the character side of things feels sparse.

Besides DM'ing I like just making characters for the fun of it, and I've made six or seven 4th edition PC's and feel kind of like there just aren’t that many interesting varieties of PC's left for me to make under the new rule set. There are only eight classes and two optimal builds for each class. Feats are very compartmentalized thus while there are a lot of them there really aren't that many for a given class. My players started out at 4th level, and our human cleric ran out of interesting feats to choose already and ended up just taking toughness for lack on anything else that sparked his interest.

With classes having such a heavy emphasis on their principal ability scores and little to no use for ability scores outside of those that synergize with their class powers it also leads to flat character design, or at least very obvious ways of building a given class/race combo. It's as if your ability scores don't really matter in defining your PC anymore other than giving you plusses to your powers that key off them. I find it disappointing that a wizard with an 8 in strength suffers no loss for having that 8, or that a paladin with a 16 int would only be wasting valuable build points and not gain anything from a high intelligence. I guess a big gripe with the system is that ability scores don't feel like they have any bearing on your character other than adding plusses to your powers.

All that being said I think I’ll like the system more a year or two from now when we have players handbook 2, splat books, 3rd party stuff to play with, etc. etc. Just looking at the players guide it feels like they just give us a small sampling of everything the system has to offer. It seems like there is a ton of room for the system to grow, more classes, feats, powers, paragon paths, epic destinies, uses for skills, magic items, weapons, armor, rituals…all that. I just wish there would have been more from the start.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

For me, the opposite has kind of happened.

With 3E, the magic went away. Everything became so complicated and fiddly, powerful, yes, but the "Rules for everything!" constricted my group more than empowered it, and whilst the munchkin had a field-day, the other players were somewhat bored by it. We still played, but less and less, and had less fun.

With 4E, even with the board and everything, we've having a better time, I'm finding it a lot easier to write adventures, and the least-involved players in 3.XE are now amongst the most-involved.

 

[Bunnicula]

I have to agree with Ruin Explorer. This system IS slightly more restrictive, but we'll have more and more options as new books come out.

And frankly, as someone who's only been gaming a few years, the simplified rules open up a lot of options for me. I don't HAVE to have 200 pages of rules, exceptions, equipment and errata memorized to use a wizard effectively, and for the first time I don't find myself slowing down the group by having to look stuff up every damn time it's my turn.

I do wish there were more options for feats and powers. At 5th level I'm already getting itchy about the constrained choices. But, I can be patient while they turn out some new books. The Tome of Treasures is due out in September, which will help, and Martial Power and Arcane Power should be almost entirely new things I want. PHB II promises, what is it, 4 new races and 3 new classes? I can't find the gossip thread right now.

But I think you're just feeling stuck because you're playing the bare bones of a game we normally experience as almost infinitely rich.

 

[Emirikol]

I feel your pain. We had a LOT of options in 3x. Now, it's like we're in a traffic jam. Combats take a lot longer and each players turn feels like an eternity. Creation of new and supplemental material feels like real work and a lot less like a fun "tinkering-with" hobby.

Plus, I never was much of a D&D-Miniatures-Game player, so 4E has definately been a force into an area that I never enjoyed in the first place.

For me, there's no going back though. We shall see as we go along. My players are 66/33% on like/dislike for the system.

jh

 

[StickPerson]

Don't get me wrong, I do really like the new system (DM'ing it anyway) and in many ways am glad that the character options are as limited as they are for now...gives us time to master the system before it gets bloated and unwieldy.

I also like balanced PC's and hope hope hope that balance can be maintained as more options are added to the system. I guess it’s just the side of me that made well over fifty characters under the 3.5 system that isn't happy with a limited number of PC perceived build options at this point.

Anyway, my players like it, and I really like DM'ing it (monsters are a hoot), but am glad I'm not playing a PC at this point. Also, I'm busy with my job and lazy when it comes to authoring home/alternate rules (I should probably get back to writing software for work now) and am itching to see what options WoTC, 3rd parties, and the community publish to expand the system.

 

[TheLordWinter]

Combats take a lot longer and each players turn feels like an eternity. Creation of new and supplemental material feels like real work and a lot less like a fun "tinkering-with" hobby.

I've had a very different experience - I've found combats run much smoother and faster now. I did an 18th level combat last night from an adventure converted from the Savage Tide adventure path from Dungeon. I was really impressed, our very first full 4th edition combat lasted 40 minutes or so. For an 18th level combat, let alone the first one with the new rules I think that's pretty good. I found as we were getting up in levels in 3.5 particularly, we could get maybe a combat or two during a session.

It might just be my experience, but I feel 4th ed. combat is much faster paced and really a lot quicker and more intense compared to older editions.