What do you mean? Clerics and Wizards literally can summon angels.
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Has the Vancian Magic Thread Burned Down the Forest Yet? (My Bad, People)
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What do you mean? Clerics and Wizards literally can summon angels.
I'm going to make this my last post because I'm really burnt out on this:
It isn't a problem and really this whole argument is the age old "Why can't my Hafling Magic User/Thief have an 18-00 Strength! It isn't fair!" in new dressing.
A tenth level fighter would clean their clock, hands down, even if he didn't have any magic items on him at all.
At tenth level, the fighter could have a Strength of 20 which is a +5 modifier to hit. They also have a BAB of +10/5 which means they have two attacks. With a long sword that's a damage range of 6 to 13. A 1st level Wizard is not likely to have more than 6 hp while a tenth level fighter can have up to 140 hp maximum, assuming, he also has an 18 Constitution. But more than likely will have about 80 hp.
With those two attacks, he has a potential of defeating 16 monsters. depending upon the level. Because a good melee fighter would have, Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Weapon Focus, and Weapon Specialization.
That's non linear progression. At first level a fighter can not do this. Which is why the linear vs exponential is hogwash.
The damage increases for a fighter is however, based on weapon damage. So let's give him a magic weapon.
At tenth level I believe the maximum bonus a 10th level character can have is a +3. So we can give him a longsword that is a Baned Weapon (Wizards), Keened, Flaming.
All of those abilities are +1 Bonuses.
A Baned weapon gives a +2 to hit vs the named opponent and an extra 2d6 damage versus the Wizard. Keen doubles the threat range of the weapon, so with his feat the threat range of the weapon would be from 16 to 20. Flaming adds a further 1d6 damage. So the weapon would do 2d6 +1d6 Fire +1d8 damage +5 (Strength Modifier) two times in a round. When it scores a critical, it doubles that damage, and with a threat range of 16 to 20, the odds are very good to score a critical. Maximum Damage, without a Crit is 29. With a crit is 58. That's two times in a single round. That's comparable to a Fireball. The maximum damage a fireball can do is 60 points of damage, without Metamagic. With Metamagic it could be up to 90pts of damage.
So that's also a good chance of disrupting a Wizard's spell, with which the DC is 10 plus Damage Dealt vs d20 + Concentration check. So a DC of 19 to 39 or up to 68.
A mage at tenth level, assuming he maxed out his Concentration Skill ranks, and without Skill Focus feat or any other modifiers, would be a total of +19 (14 ranks plus 20 INT). So that means a fighter has a very good chance, two times in a single round, of disrupting the Wizard's casting.
And with the weapon he'd have a To Hit Bonus of +15/+10, not counting any other magical or masterwork bonuses.
And this doesn't include the rules for automatic dying to massive damage, if you wish to use them.
So you see, a fighter can compare to a wizard. That's just one weapon and any adventurer is more than likely to have more than a single different kind of weapon and many other magic items to help them out. However, it is based on equipment rather than natural magical abilities. And we can go this route with many other different combinations too, and we can even go with a +3 weapon and the fighter would still be comparable to a wizard and still have a good chance to win.
And the rogue would be using this diversion to steal the Wizard's spell components and items so he or she couldn't cast his other spells. Or just attacking from behind doing massive amounts of sneak damage.
The other thing to remember to is in a RPG, all power is relative.
At first level Kobolds kick your butt. At a few levels higher, you're Kicking Kobold Butt. At tenth level you can slaughter a small army of Kobolds. At twentieth you wouldn't even bother with them unless there was a huge five thousand Kobold Army.
I have nothing more to say. I know this won't change anybody's mind on the matter.
But at least it's out there somewhere.
No, it isn't. This is pure hogwash. Because you're only comparing the wizard to the fighter and not to any other situations. Such say a powerful demon who also can cast a lightning bolt at will or a large group of 35 Orcs or Kobolds. In DDO there's this one mission where you have to defend against one hundred Kobolds. This is a mission that nobody can do alone, and you need a full team to look out for each other.
It isn't a problem and really this whole argument is the age old "Why can't my Hafling Magic User/Thief have an 18-00 Strength! It isn't fair!" in new dressing.
Sleep takes care of the fighter and a coup de grace would end him. In 3.5 Sleep only affects 4hd of creatures and they get a Will Saving Throw. Sleep would have a maximum DC of 15 at first level so there's a good chance that a fighter, assuming he's first level, would fail. But of course, remember, a good fighter waits until the Wizard starts casting the spell so they can have a chance to disrupt the spell. But against three Wizards, he'd have to choose which one to attack for disrupting the spell.
A tenth level fighter would clean their clock, hands down, even if he didn't have any magic items on him at all.
At tenth level, the fighter could have a Strength of 20 which is a +5 modifier to hit. They also have a BAB of +10/5 which means they have two attacks. With a long sword that's a damage range of 6 to 13. A 1st level Wizard is not likely to have more than 6 hp while a tenth level fighter can have up to 140 hp maximum, assuming, he also has an 18 Constitution. But more than likely will have about 80 hp.
With those two attacks, he has a potential of defeating 16 monsters. depending upon the level. Because a good melee fighter would have, Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Weapon Focus, and Weapon Specialization.
That's non linear progression. At first level a fighter can not do this. Which is why the linear vs exponential is hogwash.
The damage increases for a fighter is however, based on weapon damage. So let's give him a magic weapon.
At tenth level I believe the maximum bonus a 10th level character can have is a +3. So we can give him a longsword that is a Baned Weapon (Wizards), Keened, Flaming.
All of those abilities are +1 Bonuses.
A Baned weapon gives a +2 to hit vs the named opponent and an extra 2d6 damage versus the Wizard. Keen doubles the threat range of the weapon, so with his feat the threat range of the weapon would be from 16 to 20. Flaming adds a further 1d6 damage. So the weapon would do 2d6 +1d6 Fire +1d8 damage +5 (Strength Modifier) two times in a round. When it scores a critical, it doubles that damage, and with a threat range of 16 to 20, the odds are very good to score a critical. Maximum Damage, without a Crit is 29. With a crit is 58. That's two times in a single round. That's comparable to a Fireball. The maximum damage a fireball can do is 60 points of damage, without Metamagic. With Metamagic it could be up to 90pts of damage.
So that's also a good chance of disrupting a Wizard's spell, with which the DC is 10 plus Damage Dealt vs d20 + Concentration check. So a DC of 19 to 39 or up to 68.
A mage at tenth level, assuming he maxed out his Concentration Skill ranks, and without Skill Focus feat or any other modifiers, would be a total of +19 (14 ranks plus 20 INT). So that means a fighter has a very good chance, two times in a single round, of disrupting the Wizard's casting.
And with the weapon he'd have a To Hit Bonus of +15/+10, not counting any other magical or masterwork bonuses.
And this doesn't include the rules for automatic dying to massive damage, if you wish to use them.
So you see, a fighter can compare to a wizard. That's just one weapon and any adventurer is more than likely to have more than a single different kind of weapon and many other magic items to help them out. However, it is based on equipment rather than natural magical abilities. And we can go this route with many other different combinations too, and we can even go with a +3 weapon and the fighter would still be comparable to a wizard and still have a good chance to win.
And the rogue would be using this diversion to steal the Wizard's spell components and items so he or she couldn't cast his other spells. Or just attacking from behind doing massive amounts of sneak damage.
The other thing to remember to is in a RPG, all power is relative.
At first level Kobolds kick your butt. At a few levels higher, you're Kicking Kobold Butt. At tenth level you can slaughter a small army of Kobolds. At twentieth you wouldn't even bother with them unless there was a huge five thousand Kobold Army.
I have nothing more to say. I know this won't change anybody's mind on the matter.
But at least it's out there somewhere.
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...So your proof is that a level 10 fighter can kill a level 1 wizard? Really?
Also a wizard can gve himself higher strength then the fighter with polymorph/shapechange. Woops!
As for the kobolds, a simple wall spell ends that.
Oh, and fireball is an awful spell.
Again, your examples tell me you've never seen a wzard do anything but throw around fireballs, at which point, yeah, they don't seem all that strong. But wizards can do far more then that.
Also a wizard can gve himself higher strength then the fighter with polymorph/shapechange. Woops!
As for the kobolds, a simple wall spell ends that.
Oh, and fireball is an awful spell.
Again, your examples tell me you've never seen a wzard do anything but throw around fireballs, at which point, yeah, they don't seem all that strong. But wizards can do far more then that.
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Plane Sailing
Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
Two entrenched set of opinions arguing like mad for 2+ pages, I think this thread is done.
Clunk.
Clunk.
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