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Have the Damage Expressions from Page 42 Been Updated?

Stoat

Adventurer
I know the skill DC's from page 42 have been updated several times, and an updated version of them is in the Rules Compendium.

Were the damage expressions also updated? If so, where can I find the updated versions?
 

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the Jester

Legend
Attached you'll find the update pdf with the info you want; it's on (IIRC) page 40.
 

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D'karr

Adventurer
Last edited:

Quickleaf

Legend
What's interesting is that the damage expression update no longer differentiates between traps/hazards which make single-shot attacks vs. ongoing attacks.

I'm trying to find a way to reconcile this with the DMG 2 info on trap/hazard design.
 



The Little Raven

First Post
I know the skill DC's from page 42 have been updated several times, and an updated version of them is in the Rules Compendium.

Were the damage expressions also updated? If so, where can I find the updated versions?

While these fine gentlepeople have given you the info, the official source is in the D&D Essentials DM Kit's book on page 108.
 


Rechan

Adventurer
Notes on new damage expression format, since this confused me at first:

Low damage expression: Multi-attack powers, Artillery
Medium damage expression: Most standard attacks.
High damage: Brute AWs.
Limited: Encounters/recharge powers.
 



The Little Raven

First Post
Does the DM book in the DM Kit have the new Monster Math in it?

Nope, but the errata does. The DM's book gives you tools for creating adventures and encounters, but not for creating monsters or traps or anything else.

I sent you an email with a monster creation summary I put together back in mid-2010.
 

Quickleaf

Legend
I came back to this thread cause I'm in the process of updating my cheat sheet, and I'm a bit stuck on whether or not to update the damage expressions of page 42.

It's clear the update to the DMG is not actually "up to date"; just looking at the Difficulty tables in the update document (p. 37) reveals that.

Notes on new damage expression format, since this confused me at first:

Low damage expression: Multi-attack powers, Artillery
Medium damage expression: Most standard attacks.
High damage: Brute AWs.
Limited: Encounters/recharge powers.
Yeah Mike Shea's approach is a bit different from the errata.

Single-shot traps are probably best treated as minions.
Yeah but that puts their damage way low. In my games I'd prefer a falling iron portcullis being quite dangerous at 3d10+5 rather than dealing a paltry 8 damage. Maybe for some groups that makes sense though?
 

D'karr

Adventurer
Yeah but that puts their damage way low. In my games I'd prefer a falling iron portcullis being quite dangerous at 3d10+5 rather than dealing a paltry 8 damage. Maybe for some groups that makes sense though?

I think this is all relative to the encounter, and the thematics of the encounter should weigh heavily on what approach you use.

When you are building the encounter you can use the XP budget and the Encounter Level to determine how "deadly" that trap should be. But balance it all with the theme of the encounter. If that trap would "feel" better as a minion use it as such, if it "feels" better as a brute then use it as such.

This is where a lot of the "art" part of the DMing craft should come into play.
 

the Jester

Legend
Yeah but that puts their damage way low. In my games I'd prefer a falling iron portcullis being quite dangerous at 3d10+5 rather than dealing a paltry 8 damage. Maybe for some groups that makes sense though?

Sorry, I was unclear. What I meant was, if a trap deals damage only once, I would consider it a minion for xp purposes (assuming it dealt damage in line with a high damage attack for its level).

The portcullis is a bad example because, since it can split the party, act as a barrier, etc, I'd treat it as a full "obstacle" type trap. A pit is the perfect example- you fall in once and then you know it's there. So say a pit trap that does 3d10+5 (20' deep + spikes?), I'd eyeball that at about a level 6 minion trap.
 


Quickleaf

Legend
Sorry, I was unclear. What I meant was, if a trap deals damage only once, I would consider it a minion for xp purposes (assuming it dealt damage in line with a high damage attack for its level).
Ah, now I gotcha. I blame 4espeak.

The portcullis is a bad example because, since it can split the party, act as a barrier, etc, I'd treat it as a full "obstacle" type trap. A pit is the perfect example- you fall in once and then you know it's there. So say a pit trap that does 3d10+5 (20' deep + spikes?), I'd eyeball that at about a level 6 minion trap.
Heh. See I would consider the pit trap to NOT be a minion because someone could get pushed back into it during the fight and there is no clear countermeasure. The portcullis, OTOH, would have to be wound up and dropped a second time to feature as a trap again in the same combat. That's my thinking.

Of course if we're talking out of combat, then most traps probably should be valued as minions in terms of XP.
 

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