Having some trouble with a PC & Deepwarden PrC - SOLVED (and in record time too!!)

[Sidekick]

Okay here’s the deal, in my campaign one of the players has a Dwarven PC (Gestalt Barbarian5/Rogue5).

Now he wants to take the Deepwarden PrC, and I have a few concerns.

The player in question is my groups PowerGamerm, the others are a casual gamer, a HEAVY RPer and then an RPer / tactician. The Dwarf hits for something like 1d12+30 in most combats (raged, great axe, yadda yadda), then if he flanks he gets his 3d6 sneak attack.

The thing that tips him is that his AC sucks (about 16 when raging).

Sure at 5th level he’s got something like 80hp but I prefer for him to take the bad with the good - ie hit hard but be able to be hit hard back.

The main point of concern for me is the Deepwarden is the 2nd level ability where the character gets to add their Con bonus AC instead of their Dex bonus.

He’s got like a dex of 12 and a con of 18. So that’s already a net bonus of +3 to AC. That’s fine by me really, it’s the next bit that worries me.

Then you add in the +4 to Con from Raging and it all gets a bit much. And you can bet that this guys will suddenly be stocking up on potions of Bears Endurance as well… So when Raging and bears enduranc’ed he’ll have an AC of something like 10+6(+1 mithril breastplate)+4con+2rage+2potion= 24

That’s before the Cleric Sheild of Faiths, him and then also Bull’s Strengths him – so for most combats he’d be AC26 dealing 1d12+45 or something chronic like that. The next best melee combatant is the monk/cleric who does 1d8+1/1d8+1 with his flurried longsword… :\


So what I’m thinking of proposing is that I limit his Con Bonus to AC either by
a) his level in the PrC, or
b) Permanent Con Bonuses only (no buffs, no Raging bonus)

I don’t want to totally ‘nerf’ or nix the ability, but I want to limit it so that he doesn’t in effect “Win” D&D.


What do you think, am I being unfair, or do I have warranted concerns?

If so which option do you think is fairer?

 

[Darklone]

I'd simply not allow that PrClass.

 

[Legildur]

When I first read that PrC a year ago, I thought 'cool'! But then I had concerns and also wondered why the AC bonus wasn't capped with class level like it is with the other PrCs.

He may be tough and hit like a tank, but I bet his Will save is non-existent.

 

[zeb.hillard]

So what I’m thinking of proposing is that I limit his Con Bonus to AC either by
a) his level in the PrC, or
b) Permanent Con Bonuses only (no buffs, no Raging bonus)

Personally...make the Maximum Dexterity for Armor apply to his Constitution bonus. It says you 'replace the Dexterity bonus with your Constitution bonus.' If the maximum amount of Dexterity bonus you can apply while wearing a certain piece of armor is +3, then that's the maximum amount of your Constitution bonus you can apply. Not RAW, but I would easily assume it's RAI.

 

[Legildur]

Yeah, agree with Zeb. I just assumed that the armor max dex score was still in play, even with the new bonus score contributing.

 

[shilsen]

Agreed with zeb.hillard and Legildur. I've seen nothing in the Deepwarden's description to indicate that the Dex cap from armor suddenly disappears. The Con bonus can be used instead of the Dex bonus, but that doesn't change the nature of the armor he's wearing.

 

[zeb.hillard]

Agreed with zeb.hillard and Legildur. I've seen nothing in the Deepwarden's description to indicate that the Dex cap from armor suddenly disappears. The Con bonus can be used instead of the Dex bonus, but that doesn't change the nature of the armor he's wearing.

The second level Deepwarden ability has always been a source of major contention on the Character Optimization boards over at the Wizards site. It always comes down to RAW versus RAI there, but most of those wearing the Old Hat lean toward the RAI version of the power. And always remember, if he simply finds a simple way to boost his Constitution to extremely high levels and decides to go without Armor at all...his Touch Attack is going to suffer at the expense of a higher overall AC.

 

[Sidekick]

OF COURSE!!!!

And Sidekick does it again with the whole pea-brained not thinking the rules through.

Well he uses a Mithril Breastplate which will only even net him a +5 max dex bonus to AC.

That’s about the best Armour in the game in terms of armour bonus and max Dex bonusso that’s sweet.

I’m fine with a +4 or +5. But anything over that is rather obscene..

Thanks everyone (also, wow what a speedy group of replies)!!!

 

[zeb.hillard]

OF COURSE!!!!
Well he uses a Mithril Breastplate which will only even net him a +5 max dex bonus to AC.

That’s about the best Armour in the game in terms of armour bonus and max Dex bonusso that’s sweet.

I’m fine with a +4 or +5. But anything over that is rather obscene..

Thanks everyone (also, wow what a speedy group of replies)!!!

Mithral Breastplate is, hands down, one of the best armors in the game (The only step up in the games I run from the Mithral Chain Shirt, as most people completely disregard Mithral Full Plate because it entails an Armor Check penalty.


Be prepared to defend your decision with a steadfast demeanor, though. Because most people will pull out the book and point, mouths open in disbelief, and stammer that the ability doesn't say it limits the Constitution modifier.

EDIT: Also, if it has been the players intention to run the Deepwarden PrC for a while now, I would make your judgment known before he starts leveling in the class, and allow him to make any necessary alterations if he decides that he doesn't want to continue with it, due to the changes you have made. It's only fair, after all.

 

[Darklone]

The Deepwarden Con bonus to AC is natural armor?

Waste him with Scorching ray firing kobold sorcerers.