Healing Surge Damage

[Matt James]

I use extended rests sparingly. As an analog, I sometimes get slammed with projects. Once one is finished, another has already overlapped or is just beginning. I usually don't have time to sit back and kick my feet up. This happens over the course of months. I would say that I have not effectively had an extended rest. My view on them is that they represent vacations

That being said, it doesn't mean what I do with them is how every group should handle them. Extended Rests should be at the discresion of the DM. It's brutal when the LFR mentality creeps in and PCs start demanding them. If I could go back and change anything in the system, it would be the hard-set rules that facilitated the nothing-is-right-unless-it-is-100%-RAW mentality. It handcuffs the DM. The rules are not infallible.

The Deathlock Wight is already causing damage with its attacks. Its Surge siphoning effect represents sapping the stamina out of the character. I would had it deal an addition 1d4 damage. Why? Because the d4 doesn't get enough love in monsters

 

[wlmartin]

While I agree with you 99%, the extended rest after a tough battle that occurred first thing in the morning "could" be:

Laying around moaning and bleeding in a coma, sewing leather armor back together, shaking off the "shakes" after your near brush with death, etc.

So abusing it encounter after encounter is uncalled for I agree, but on occasion it would be foolish to press on and my groups hunker down and recoup (in character).

Our group use the Moderate Rest principal.

This is where the group takes a medium sized rest (about an hour) and recovers a portion of their healing surges (say 1/2).

They do not recover any daily powers

They are reset to 1 action point

This enables the DM to run a long adventure without having to worry about killing the PCs but also keeping the balance so that DAILY powers are kept as DAILY powers.

This is quite a good technique as it takes the issue of running out of healing surges away from the Extended Rest and it makes a bit more sense immersion wise.

 

[keterys]

Aside: I think it would be better if almost every surge dealing effect did something else, at this point. For example, on monsters I _much_ prefer "cannot heal" - a good spike of damage and no ability to heal is actually very scary in the now, whereas surges just shorten the adventuring day or force ritual use.

 

[NewJeffCT]

Count me among those who thought that you took 1/2 Bloodied damage when out of Surges. There's an implacable logic about it that explains why many people might naturally assume it's the case.

Certainly I think taking Surge damage when you're out of Surges should do *something*... it seems like perfect territory for Endurance or something to come into its own, as I believe someone said further up-thread.

That is the way I had been playing it, but it seems to be wrong according to Mike Mearls' tweet posted above.

Seems to take the deadliness out of a creature that drains healing surges as part of its power. For example: the wight's attack is d6+4 damage, plus loss of a healing surge. A quick level 5 fighter with 56 hit points, a bloodied value of 28 and 1/2 bloodied of 14. So, the wight goes from causing 7.5 points of damage and 14 points of healing surge damage, to just causing 7.5 points of damage even though it was doing what it's supposed to be doing?

 

[S'mon]

Any DM that allows his players to take an Extended Rest after every Encounter is pandering to his players far too much and threatens to unbalance the game.

The players say:
"We've had a tough encounter, we're going to leave the dungeon now and come back tomorrow after an extended rest."

Do you say to them "No, you can't have an extended rest until you've had 3 more encounters"? That seems pretty heavy-handed to me. Do you stop them leaving the dungeon somehow ("the rails take you to the next encounter...") ? Do you tell them they can leave, but they don't get any extended-rest benefits until X more fights?

What I do: I DM naturalistically; that very often means only 1 fight between extended rests, but it may well be a very tough fight (I have a rep as a bit of a killer DM). Or there may be a good in-game reason why taking an extended rest is unwise - the PCs may be on a mission through hostile wilderness perhaps. Currently GMing The Slaying Stone and the PCs need to complete their search before dusk falls and the goblins become active.

 

[keterys]

I think the game would be a stronger game if you couldn't do a full extended rest after every encounter. Usually, I suggest against that as a DM by having things happen without them if they need to rest.

That is to say, NPCs are kidnapped, or die, or the forces of evil grow stronger, or the assassins following them gain more data, etc. Consequences of some sort.

In one home game, the time consequences were:
* Breakdown of diplomatic relations with a nearby tribe (that would be important later, and helped them get more treasure then)
* Unleashing of a plague on the city, including a number of their friends.
* Giving assassins time to gather more reinforcements to attack them with.
* Allowing an evil ruler to build up a greater power base while away from them.

And they've been very motivated to get things done - including one of the more heroic things I've seen, of a defender who starts a combat already bloodied with 0 surges, and still sanctions the entire combat of undead... drops, is brought back up with a potion to 1 hp... and does it again

In some cases, it may mean failing the adventure entirely. They fail to save Arvandor, Corellon dies and it's destroyed. With appropriate warnings for trying, of course, but if you ignore them even understanding the consequences... go you.

Or... good luck taking an extended rest, you're completely surrounded by abominations with no safe way to go.

In an "explore a dungeon" environment, similar sandbox, or campaign with very long periods between combats (traveling campaign, frex), I'd probably be tempted to use Jonathan Tweet's houserule of 2 milestones to turn a rest into an extended rest.

 

[wlmartin]

The players say:
"We've had a tough encounter, we're going to leave the dungeon now and come back tomorrow after an extended rest."

Do you say to them "No, you can't have an extended rest until you've had 3 more encounters"? That seems pretty heavy-handed to me. Do you stop them leaving the dungeon somehow ("the rails take you to the next encounter...") ? Do you tell them they can leave, but they don't get any extended-rest benefits until X more fights?

What I do: I DM naturalistically; that very often means only 1 fight between extended rests, but it may well be a very tough fight (I have a rep as a bit of a killer DM). Or there may be a good in-game reason why taking an extended rest is unwise - the PCs may be on a mission through hostile wilderness perhaps. Currently GMing The Slaying Stone and the PCs need to complete their search before dusk falls and the goblins become active.

As a DM I would rarely say "NO" to someone... but if I told them before hand or through previous sessions that they will run into about 5-8 encounters before they get the chance to take an E/Rest, if they then persist I would put it down to overeagerness at best, disrespect at worst.

There is no need to take an Extended Rest other than to recover healing surges... that is the only thing that PREVENTS them from continuing on. As long as you can build a mechanic that allows them to recover H/Surges but not their dailies, then a moderate rest is the best thing.

If the players would insist on leaving the Dungeon to take their extended rest in town then they are trying to run the Session.

If the group knows what the score is, if they insist on taking the short cut around the way you want to design the story there are 2 ways around it

1 : Leave the group, clearly the group disrespects you
2 : TPK them .... give them some eternal rest, should about do it!

I am all for player power and the player being an integral cog in the running of the game... however if the DM states the rules and they are agreed on and the players decide to run the game a different way regardless, that just isnt on!

 

[wlmartin]

I think the game would be a stronger game if you couldn't do a full extended rest after every encounter. Usually, I suggest against that as a DM by having things happen without them if they need to rest.

That is to say, NPCs are kidnapped, or die, or the forces of evil grow stronger, or the assassins following them gain more data, etc. Consequences of some sort.

In one home game, the time consequences were:
* Breakdown of diplomatic relations with a nearby tribe (that would be important later, and helped them get more treasure then)
* Unleashing of a plague on the city, including a number of their friends.
* Giving assassins time to gather more reinforcements to attack them with.
* Allowing an evil ruler to build up a greater power base while away from them.

And they've been very motivated to get things done - including one of the more heroic things I've seen, of a defender who starts a combat already bloodied with 0 surges, and still sanctions the entire combat of undead... drops, is brought back up with a potion to 1 hp... and does it again

In some cases, it may mean failing the adventure entirely. They fail to save Arvandor, Corellon dies and it's destroyed. With appropriate warnings for trying, of course, but if you ignore them even understanding the consequences... go you.

Or... good luck taking an extended rest, you're completely surrounded by abominations with no safe way to go.

In an "explore a dungeon" environment, similar sandbox, or campaign with very long periods between combats (traveling campaign, frex), I'd probably be tempted to use Jonathan Tweet's houserule of 2 milestones to turn a rest into an extended rest.

It really doesnt need to be that complicated.
There are certain things in the game that are core... such as DCs, Defenses, D20 rolls etc.. as long as you explain that the time the group spends in the area, the periods they can rest at and the benefits of those rests (be they short, moderate or extended) then the players know this for the future.

There is no need to come up with a roleplaying reason why this is the way it is... just like there is no reason to give a roleplaying reason why Elves get a +2 to dex, why dwarves can use their second wind as a minor and why undead are resistant to radiant... you can come up with a story for everything but as long as you dont surprise your players with rules they may not agree with, the rest is just down to common sense and correct etiquette.

STFU and listen to the DM
... as I said before, I am big on players having a direction in how a game goes but as there are certain things that the players have no control over (which monsters they face, what treasure they drop etc) nor should they have control over basic things such as rests. Their input should be considered but just as if there were 5 players that all wanted to play Wizards... at some point the DM decides things and the players ... PLAY

 

[keterys]

That is the way I had been playing it, but it seems to be wrong according to Mike Mearls' tweet posted above.

Seems to take the deadliness out of a creature that drains healing surges as part of its power. For example: the wight's attack is d6+4 damage, plus loss of a healing surge. A quick level 5 fighter with 56 hit points, a bloodied value of 28 and 1/2 bloodied of 14. So, the wight goes from causing 7.5 points of damage and 14 points of healing surge damage, to just causing 7.5 points of damage even though it was doing what it's supposed to be doing?

And its expected damage is 13... so it goes from 21.5 most of the time to 7.5 now... time to switch targets to someone who has some more life to drain

Though, as Logan commented on the wight remake, he did try to get a "no healing" version allowed, they just didn't want to change things up too much.

 

[S'mon]

If the players would insist on leaving the Dungeon to take their extended rest in town then they are trying to run the Session.

Eh, yeah, IMCs the players are in charge of their PCs, and of deciding what they do. Clearly our mileage varies!