Health, hardiness -- translating RL to DnD

[Driddle]

I was chatting on the phone with my brother a while ago, exchanging details of our respective days. Nothing too exciting.

But when he mentioned working out and lifting weights, I took a few notes for posting here. Would like your feedback, please.

He's 40 years old, about 6' tall and weighs 160 lbs. An active guy for his age, I think, he plays indoor soccer a couple times a week (midfield, entire game, no subs). He hasn't been sick for at least three years that I can remember, except for the annual brief tussle with spring allergies. He lifts weights for fitness, but not to bulk up just for public muscle flexing.

I asked him how strong he thought he was (I was thinking in game terms, although he is not a gamer himself). He gave an efficient, albeit vague response: "Strong enough." But he had his training schedule on hand and recited a couple of numbers to me: arm extensions & curls, 75 lbs.; leg curls (seated), 130 lbs.; fly, 70 lbs.; and seated leg press, 300 lbs. Honestly, I don't have any idea whether that's impressive or not. He seems like a healthy, average sort of guy to me.

But with that background in mind, the DnD question is pretty obvious by now: What do you think his attribute stats would be in a game? A little higher than the 11.5 average, perhaps?

 

[Umbran]

Okay, at 40 years old, as a human he's "middle aged", and has lost soem of his potential in Strength, Dex, and Con.

We really cannot speak to his Dex. Not enough information.

A guy who can play a full game of indoor soccer in the midfield without substitution has above average Constitution compared to modern middle-class Americans. But compare him instead to a D&D-world commoner, and he's perhaps not far above average. Farmers toil a lot in the fields, and all. Same for strength.

The key, then, is what you consider average. Average modern human? Average American? Average D&D world denizen?

 

[Bloodstone Press]

A guy who can play a full game of indoor soccer in the midfield without substitution has above average Constitution compared to modern middle-class Americans. But compare him instead to a D&D-world commoner, and he's perhaps not far above average. Farmers toil a lot in the fields, and all. Same for strength.

The key, then, is what you consider average. Average modern human? Average American? Average D&D world denizen?

Good point. However, I think the carrying capacity and the ability bonus for all Strength scores are the same in d20 Modern as they are in d20 Fantasy.

I asked him how strong he thought he was (I was thinking in game terms, although he is not a gamer himself). He gave an efficient, albeit vague response: "Strong enough." But he had his training schedule on hand and recited a couple of numbers to me: arm extensions & curls, 75 lbs.; leg curls (seated), 130 lbs.; fly, 70 lbs.; and seated leg press, 300 lbs. Honestly, I don't have any idea whether that's impressive or not. He seems like a healthy, average sort of guy to me.

I usually go to the gym about 3-5 times a week, though I haven't been much recently. I estimate my Strength (in DnD terms) to be about 13, maybe 14. In my top condition, I could do your brother's workout easily. In my current poor condition I could do it with some effort.

At my best I can do the following workout;
40 pushups (warm up).
flat Bench press 125 lb. (10 times) (barbell)
flat Bench press 175 lb. (10 times) (barbell)
flat Bench press 205 lb. (10 times) (barbell)
flat Bench press 215 lb. (5 times) (barbell)
flat bench press 125 lb. (10 times) (barbell)
Incline bench press 110 lb. (30 times) (barbell)
Decline bench press 125 lb. (30 times) (barbell)
flat bench press 120 lb. (30 times) (dumbbells)
Butterflies 120 lb. (30 times) (nautilus machine)

(PHEW!)

standing curl 70 lb. (10 times) (2 dumbbells)
standing curl 80 lb. (10 times) (2 dumbbells)
standing curl 90 lb. (10 times) (2 dumbbells)
standing curl 100 lb. (5 times) (2 dumbbells)
standing curl 65 lb. (30 times) (barbell)
seated curl 35 lb. (30 times) (1 dumbbell)
Preacher bench curl 30 lb. (30 times) (1 dumbbell)

well, you get the idea. After doing all that, I usually hit other parts of my body depending on how I feel. Sometimes I'll do legs or back. I always make sure I hit my triceps as well:

Donkey kicks 35 lb. (30 times) (1 dumbbell)
Extensions 70 lb. (30 times) (nautilus machine)

Note I can do all that, but I can't run a quarter mile without becoming exhausted. :\

I very rarely get sick and usually go several years between episodes of "serious" illnesses that cause me to miss a day of work. In the past 10 years I've seen the doctor, maybe 3 or 4 times. I have no allergies. I'm 5'6" and weigh 170 pounds. 6 inches shorter and 10 pounds heavier than your brother. All that muscle weighs a lot

I also have the following feat:
Healthy lifestyle
The character with this feat is informed about nutritional facts and habits of healthy living. The character eats a balanced diet, avoids junk foods, gets enough sleep and engages in regular physical activity.
Prerequisite: Knowledge (earth and life science) 4 ranks
Benefit: Characters with this feat gain a +2 bonus on their Fortitude saves against disease and a +2 bonus on all Strength based skill checks such as Swim, Climb and Jump.

However, I could not play mid-field through an entire soccer game. I have very poor endurance. While at the gym, I never ride a bike or a treadmill. Even my 55 year old father has better endurance than I do.

Therefore, I also have the "Poor Endurance" disadvantage.

 

[mmu1]

Using the D&D carrying capacity values to estimate strength is not a very good idea - those things are off in two significant ways.

1. They seriously underestimate the max carrying capacity of a character - the average guy is not reduced to staggering around at less than 1 foot/second when carrying more than 100lbs of weight - like another guy of roughly the same size in a fireman carry, for example.

2. At the same time, they seriously overestimate a person's "lift over head" capacity by making it equal to max carry weight - there's no way a typical man can pick up a 100 pound weight off the ground and get it above his head, even if he works out and is in good shape, because it involves muscles that are rarely used in everyday life and pretty hard to develop.

 

[Driddle]

... there's no way a typical man can pick up a 100' weight off the ground and get it above his head, even if he works out and is in good shape, because it involves muscles that are rarely used in everyday life and pretty hard to develop.

Good points, here and earlier in the thread. And it also points to other assumptions that are glossed over in creating a numbers-based action icon. When we speak of "physically fit" in casual conversation, for example, it's really not really a well-defined term because fitness is activity-specific. I'm not fit to do some of the activities my brother is fit for. And neither of us would be fit to spend a day in the field harvesting okra.

So what's an "average" stat? I appreciate Umbran's point that dModern and dDragons both assume the same range.

((Aside to Bloodstone: That wasn't his full workout, ya know. Just a few of the numbers. I'm pretty sure he works out thrice a week across the full body range.))

 

[Umbran]

However, I think the carrying capacity and the ability bonus for all Strength scores are the same in d20 Modern as they are in d20 Fantasy.

Yes, d20 Modern and d20 Fantasy use the same scales. But those are both fictional scales. Is there any real reason to think that it was designed to fit today's real-world middle-American populace? Do you think the game designers went to the National Institute of Health and had some research done on what real-world folks could lift and carry?

I'd rather suspect that the scales were based on being vaguely plausible and reasonably useful for an action-adventure game. Beyond the vague plausibility, they've got no connection to the abilities of the real populace.

 

[mmu1]

So what's an "average" stat? I appreciate Umbran's point that dModern and dDragons both assume the same range.

((Aside to Bloodstone: That wasn't his full workout, ya know. Just a few of the numbers. I'm pretty sure he works out thrice a week across the full body range.))

I always thought the GURPS approach worked pretty well... For each STR score, you're given the average height/weight of a grown man that corresponds to it. You could probably come up with something similar using the D&D stat distribution.

As for your brother, 160lbs is kind of on the light side for 6', and it'd be easier to say anything if you had more data on his upper-body strength. His lower-body figures are not especially impressive for his height - I could leg-press (NOT squat, just to be clear) around 900lbs at 6'1", for example, and lift over 300lbs on leg extensions, but I was a rugby forward at the time and weighed around 260lbs...

 

[Driddle]

... 160lbs is kind of on the light side for 6'

??? Ya think?
I've seen my bro in just a pair of shorts, and trust me, he's not scrawny. (And 260# sounds a bit on the bulky side.)

Body composition varies a lot from person to person.

(shrug) So he's not uber-strong. A 12, 13 maybe. Like he told me, "strong enough." ... Probably a decent D&D-esque constitution score, for whatever that's worth.

Eh, just another example of how silly these kinds of "translation" topics are. Real life to D&D? -- pshaw! What was I thinking? +

 

[Gothmog]

It sounds like your brother has a high Con score (prolonged cardiovascular activity)- probably (14-16), and an above avarage strength score (12-14). He sounds very thin and lean, which soccer players need to be.

By way of comparison, I'm 6'2", 250 lbs, and I go to the gym 3 times per week to lift weights. I use a workout technique similar to Bloodstone Press (4 sets of increasing weight with 10-15 reps per set, with an overload set, and a cooldown set). My max weights right now are the following:

Benchpress (freeweight)- 350 lbs
Butterflies (machine)- 250 lbs
Overhead press (machine)- 330 lbs
Standing Hammer Curl (free)- 60 lbs per arm
Arm Extensions (free)- 80 lbs per arm
Seated Leg curl (machine)- 190 lbs
Seated Leg Extension (machine)- 280 lbs
Squats- 400 lbs
Ab Crunch (machine)- 100 at 180 lbs
Back Extension (machine)- 100 at 250 lbs
Torso Rotation (machine)- 50 on each side at 170 lbs

I also walk/jog 5 miles per day, do 200 sit ups, and 100 push ups. I eat a low fat, high protein diet, and drink lots of water. In terms of Strength score, I'm pretty high, but I'm not as big as some of the other guys over at the gym- so I'd say I have a 15 or 16. Note that under 2E, I'd have something like an 18/76-90 Strength, which I know isn't right.

And mmu1, a 100 lb overhead press isn't much, and in a desperate situation, most people could manage it easily. When I started working out 3 years ago, I could easily do 120 lbs 30 times, although I do agree the values they give on the lifting capacity table are pretty wonky (too low likely). Most of the guys I see at the gym are doing 90-150 lbs on the overhead press, so I don't think the values for it are too high.

 

[Driddle]

It sounds like your brother has a high Con score ...

Thanks, G. Good point. I guess I was taking his (our) cardiovascular fitness for granted. Because when we keep going and going in some sports activity or another, and all our friends are dropping out, we tend not to notice because we've still got each other on the court/field/whatever. It's like, "C'mon, guys, we're not done yet are we?!"