Health, hardiness -- translating RL to DnD

[Driddle]

Heh.
Spinning off on a tangent for a moment...

I'm imagining the gaming scenario where the party mage has hiked up his star-stitched robes around his knees, pointy hat bobbing on his head, beard trailing over his shoulder, shouting at other members in the group, "Come on, you wussies! Just a little further. ... Oh, for pity's sake, hand me your backpack already ... " The nimble thief, the muscular warrior, both gasping for air. His 16 Con vs. their 11s and 12s.

General health is a good thing.

 

[mmu1]

And mmu1, a 100 lb overhead press isn't much, and in a desperate situation, most people could manage it easily. When I started working out 3 years ago, I could easily do 120 lbs 30 times, although I do agree the values they give on the lifting capacity table are pretty wonky (too low likely). Most of the guys I see at the gym are doing 90-150 lbs on the overhead press, so I don't think the values for it are too high.

a) By definition, most people you see lifting weights at the gym are considerably stronger than average.

b) There's a world of difference between pressing 100lbs on a nautilus, or even lifting a 100lb barbell that was made to be balanced and easy to grip, and actually being able to lift a random 100lb weight over your head starting from the ground.

c) What you or I can lift without training doesn't prove anything about what the population at large can, since I don't think we're average-sized.

 

[Greylock]

Okay, at 40 years old, as a human he's "middle aged".../QUOTE]

Egads! I curse you ;p.

 

[Bloodstone Press]

Do you think the game designers went to the National Institute of Health and had some research done on what real-world folks could lift and carry?

No... that's one of the problems I have with the rules. They are not well researched enough.

I'd rather suspect that the scales were based on being vaguely plausible and reasonably useful for an action-adventure game. Beyond the vague plausibility, they've got no connection to the abilities of the real populace.

I agree.

At the same time, they seriously overestimate a person's "lift over head" capacity by making it equal to max carry weight - there's no way a typical man can pick up a 100 pound weight off the ground and get it above his head, even if he works out and is in good shape, because it involves muscles that are rarely used in everyday life and pretty hard to develop

I don't know about that. I've seen people who could do it with little strength training.

 

[Gothmog]

a) By definition, most people you see lifting weights at the gym are considerably stronger than average.

b) There's a world of difference between pressing 100lbs on a nautilus, or even lifting a 100lb barbell that was made to be balanced and easy to grip, and actually being able to lift a random 100lb weight over your head starting from the ground.

c) What you or I can lift without training doesn't prove anything about what the population at large can, since I don't think we're average-sized.

Good points- lifting a bulky, cumbersome object overhead is considerably more difficult than a barbell. However, as long as you can balance the object in some way, its still not that hard. Heck, moving my lab last week, I lifted a full 30 gallon ethanol tank over my head from the ground and placed it on a 7 foot shelf with little difficulty once I waited for the liquid to quit sloshing and got good handholds. Those strength feats aren't as superhuman as they seem at first glance- I know I'm sure not a superhuman.

 

[mmadsen]

Using the D&D carrying capacity values to estimate strength is not a very good idea - those things are off in two significant ways.

1. They seriously underestimate the max carrying capacity of a character - the average guy is not reduced to staggering around at less than 1 foot/second when carrying more than 100lbs of weight - like another guy of roughly the same size in a fireman carry, for example.

I'm sure most guys could carry their wife/girlfriend "piggyback" without staggering around. On the other hand, I'm not sure that most guys could carry another guy easily. (Certainly a trained athlete, soldier, or fireman can, but can the guy in the office next to you?)

2. At the same time, they seriously overestimate a person's "lift over head" capacity by making it equal to max carry weight - there's no way a typical man can pick up a 100 pound weight off the ground and get it above his head, even if he works out and is in good shape, because it involves muscles that are rarely used in everyday life and pretty hard to develop.

The maximum amount you can carry is obviously much, much more than the amount you can lift overhead. A "strong" man can lift 200 lbs overhead (barbell, military press). A strong man can stagger along with 300 lbs, 400 lbs, or more on his back.

In fact, a competitive strongman can be expected to carry 770 pounds in his hands (for distance) and lift a 330-pound log overhead for (a few) reps -- those are both events in the 2004 Battle of Muscle Beach:

1.Farmers Walk (Who can carry the FURTHEST?)The athlete will attempt to lift and carry two objects in his bare hands for as long a distance as possible. The total weight of the two objects will be approximately 770 pounds. No time limit, walk till you drop.

2. Log Lift (Who can lift the MOST?)The athlete must lift a log weighing appx. 330 pounds from the ground to overhead for as many repetitions as possible in 90 seconds.

3. Power Medley(Who can move the objects the FASTEST?) The athlete will attempt to flip (not roll) a 1200+ pound giant truck tire, carry or drag an heavy object 50 feet, then lift a 500 pound weight up a set of stairs. Fastest time wins.

4. Giant Pole Lift (Who can raise the LONGEST/HEAVIEST pole?) The athlete will attempt to ‘dead lift’ or raise the longest possible giant pole.

5. MAX Super Yoke Carry (Who can carry the MOST?) The athlete will attempt to lift and carry a progressively weighted yoke on his shoulders for 15 feet. Expect to see 1,200 to 1,500 pounds carried.

6. Stones of Strength (Who can lift and load the FASTEST?) The athlete will attempt to lift and load 5 stones weighing 308, 312, 330, 352 and 385 pounds on to pedestals ranging from 66" to 52" in height. Fastest time to load all 5 stones wins.

 

[Umbran]

No... that's one of the problems I have with the rules. They are not well researched enough.

Hm. I don't see this as a problem, really. The D&D rules are not designed to model modern urban human beings spot-on. They model people fairly similar to us, but in a different world, under different conditions. The rules aren't even designed to model the average people of this world so much as they are designed to make playing exceptional people in this world fun.

For that, they do well enough. I expect that sticking to research would have yielded rules that were both more cumbersome and less fun to work with, for all that they'd be more accurate simulations of what we can lift today.

 

[takyris]

Not to hijack, but this anecdote brings up again for me the issue of how strange it is to have Strength and Constitution as separate stats. I understand that you need them separate in order to have "the powerful warrior who strains his muscles too often" or "the incredibly healthy person who is nevertheless incredibly feeble", but those seem like situations that could be handled with flaws or tradeoffs, assuming that you used those house rules. It seems like Strength and Constitution are really tied together at a fundamental level, and that you really have to stretch to come up with situations in which they're radically different.

It's possible, of course, that they're separate for game-balance reasons, and that having one stat, "Body" or whatever, would make it too easy for people to tank using Point Buy, since there'd only be one score that they really really really needed.

I'm actually toying with a set of house rules/redesigns that create new stats:

Vitality: Modifies hit points and melee weapon damage -- a mix of Con and Str
Agility: Modifies defense and melee weapon to-hits -- a mix of Dex and Str
Perception: Modifies most observational skill checks, initiative, and ranged attack rolls -- a mix of Dex and Wis
Intelligence: The usual, plus the Wisdom skills that aren't related to observation
Dynamics: Modifies interpersonal reactions of all sorts, and willpower situations -- mostly Cha.

The fact that I could call this the VAPID system is just a plus.

 

[mmadsen]

He's 40 years old, about 6' tall and weighs 160 lbs. An active guy for his age, I think, he plays indoor soccer a couple times a week (midfield, entire game, no subs). He hasn't been sick for at least three years that I can remember, except for the annual brief tussle with spring allergies. He lifts weights for fitness, but not to bulk up just for public muscle flexing.

He certainly demonstrates good aerobic endurance and resistance to disease -- two of the three major elements of D&D Constitution. I recommend against testing his injury-resistance.

I asked him how strong he thought he was (I was thinking in game terms, although he is not a gamer himself). He gave an efficient, albeit vague response: "Strong enough." But he had his training schedule on hand and recited a couple of numbers to me: arm extensions & curls, 75 lbs.; leg curls (seated), 130 lbs.; fly, 70 lbs.; and seated leg press, 300 lbs. Honestly, I don't have any idea whether that's impressive or not. He seems like a healthy, average sort of guy to me.

It's hard to tell what any of those numbers mean without knowing exactly what kind of machine he's using (if he's using one), or what kind of form he's using with free weights. (A competitive bench press with a pause, for instance, is a different beast from the typical gym lift, and a competitive squat to "parallel" bears no resemblance to the "power curtsy" most people perform.)

That said, there are some fitness norms out there. For instance, a typical young man (20-29) can bench his own bodyweight, and a strong young man (90%ile) can bench 1.5 times his own bodyweight. Competitive powerlifters routinely bench twice their bodyweight.

On a 45-degree "sled" leg press, a typical young man can lift almost four times his bodyweight. A strong young man can lift almost five times his bodyweight.

 

[mmadsen]

A guy who can play a full game of indoor soccer in the midfield without substitution has above average Constitution compared to modern middle-class Americans. But compare him instead to a D&D-world commoner, and he's perhaps not far above average. Farmers toil a lot in the fields, and all. Same for strength.

From The Way We Eat Now:

David R. Bassett, a professor of exercise science at the University of Tennessee, gave pedometers to 98 of these Amish adults and found that the men averaged 18,000 steps per day, the women 14,000 — about nine miles and seven miles, respectively. The Amish men averaged 10 hours a week of vigorous activities like shoveling or tossing bales of hay (women, 3.5 hours) and 43 hours of moderate exertion like gardening or doing laundry (women, 39 hours).

Feeling sedentary?