[Heart of Nightfang Spire] Running the meat grinder...

[EntropyDecay]

Contains spoilers. If you are one of my players, please keep out of this thread!
Warning: May contain nuts!*



The inevitable has come...
My campaign which follows the (slightly modified) Adventure Path series from WotC has reached HoNF. An adventure known for its high lethality. My group had their first session last friday, tonight we'll continue.

The party at the time the characters reached the tower:
- Human PsyWar 8 / Fighter 2
- Human Cleric 9
- Gnome Illusionist 9
- Human Rogue 8
- Human Bard 4 / Illusionist 4

Very short summary of the first session:
Characters discovered the valley in which the tower stood after a lengthy travel from Brindinford;
the gnome casted the magic eye spell to scout the top of the tower and its surroundings (failing spectacularly to discover the hiding mooncalf in the shadows [spot result: 4]);
they notice that the weather seems get worse and worse by the minute (control weather from the mooncalf to prepare a control lightning);
party decides to explore the top of Nightfang Spire since they couldn't find any entrance on the ground level;
while the party still discusses how to get the weak climbers to the top, the rogue (totally unprotected by spells, ring of protection +1 is only protective item) decides to start his ascend;
the rest of the characters follow (normal climbing / boots of spider climb) after the rogue has reached about half of the tower height (45 ft. of 90 ft.), they too did't cast any protection spells;
rogue reaches the top, is surprised by the mooncalf (modified to be a fairer challenge for their slightly too low group levels), ends the surprise rounds nearly dead and grappled (tentacle hit -> improved grap);
the rest of the party is at this moment 45 ft. away (read: lower) from the unlucky rogue;

rest of combat made short:
1st rnd: whole party acts before mooncalf, but rogue doesn't make his escape artist check and rest of party uses their turn to cast spells on themselves and/or ascending the tower; mooncalf uses grapple / constricting and makes short work of the thief... uhm rogue, drops the corpse and takes off into the air;
2nd rnd: cleric & illusionist reach the top and cast spells on the flying monster (clr: flame strike, ill: displacement on himself), bard/illu uses wand of magic missiles (5th) and marches onwards (spiderclimb boots), psywar spends whole round climbing, mooncalf blasts cleric with control lightning ability;
3rd rnd: cleric casts searing light, illusionist casts melfs acid arrow, bard uses her wand, psywar reaches top and draws a bow, mooncalf uses reach of tentacles to hit cleric -> improved grap succeeds -> cleric is drawn into the air;
4th rnd: cleric unsuccessfully tries to grapple himself free (lose/lose situation: monster with constricting / 100 ft. drop to the ground), illusionist casts something (cannot remember what it was), bard uses wand, psywar fires her bow without any effect, mooncalf kills cleric;
5th rnd: illusionist casts displacement on psywar, bard fires wand, psywar uses mindblast succesfully -> mooncalf & cleric corpse hit the ground;
6th rnd ++: bard & illusionist fire wand and melfs acid arrow round after round thus killing the mooncalf.
Since the cleric was gone, they had no possibility to raise the dead and those two became the first victims of this adventure.

End of first session.



The party asked me afterwards what I thought were their biggest mistakes and how to avoid them. I found the following things.
Some reasons for party failure in the combat:

- No use of protective magic BEFORE the battle (important when entering unknown and possibly dangerous areas): Players said that they had trusted the gnome when he hadn't seen anyone at the top and they thought it was safe -> Not seeing anyone, doesn't mean there isn't anyone (...invisible, hiding, incorporeal & hidden in object)!
- Major tactical disadvantage (Flying monster against characters without any possibilities to get into the air): Players had encountered flying monsters before and always had great problems defeating them. Despite this they made no effort to get flying abilites (through spells, items,...) or think of a general party tactic against flyers.
- Taking unnecessary risks (rogue leaving the protection of the group): Never leave the group in dangerous terrain unless you absolutely have to (scouting ahead,...).
- No abilities to raise the fallen comrades or reach someone who can: Prepare for the worst and expect character deaths. Don't put too much trust into your groups cleric, he could be the first one to die. Try to get "return to life" items that more than one party member can use. Use transportation magic (flying, teleportation, magic carpet...) to be able to get to someone who can raise the dead when in the wilderness.

New characters will be:
ex-rogue -> elven fighter (archer)
ex-cleric -> human(?) paladin
Both players don't want to play a rogue (anymore), as they seem to think of a rogue as the weakest of all classes and described it as "total crap, worse than the ranger and weaker as a wizard in ANY combat". Sneak attack ("doesn't work against many targets") and lots of skill points ("who needs skills, we want feats") were disregarded as nearly meaningless by these two. I'm waiting for the look on their faces when they stumble into the next traps.



And now some questions to you:
1. What are the main killers in HoNS? What caused the character deaths in your campaign? This would be a great helper to better prepare myself for minimizing player frustration.
2. What general D&D survival tips do you have besides the ones I listed above? My group would appreciate EVERY help they can get since most of us are experienced roleplayers, but relatively new to D&D (most know D&D for about a year, while I changed shortly after 3rd Edition was released**).
3. Please give me some backup to prove them how useless a good rogue really is. It's sometimes very hard to have to discuss against two powergamers who seem to think that fighters rule supreme and all other classes are just there as supporting cast.



Thanks in advance,
Chris

*see: The science of Discworld II: The globe
**I REALLY disliked AD&D, but most of the things I criticised were altered with 3rd Edition

 

[EntropyDecay]

oh, one more question:

4. What is the current DM "highscore" on this adventure? (Means: most character deaths in single adventure)

 

[LuYangShih]

And now some questions to you:
1. What are the main killers in HoNS? What caused the character deaths in your campaign? This would be a great helper to better prepare myself for minimizing player frustration.

Let me first say to you, before I answer this and the other questions, that this party is going to die in HoNFS, especially if you play the monsters as they were meant to be played, to their full potential. Even if not, I doubt they will survive. I have seen fully min-maxed parties go into this module and suffer, badly. Your group now lacks even a Cleric, which is essential in this type of module. I can only assume that as the bodies fall, the players will min-max their new creations until they achieve a chance of surviving. But the current roster of characters is going to get shredded until that point.



As to your first question.... Everything. But specifically: The Girallons rip anything that gets into melee with them to shreds, unless they are a truly min-maxed tank. The Assassin, played properly, can end the lives of everyone in the party, depending on the way they set up resting periods. Gulthias, of course. The Mummy can be a killer, depending on the Will saves of your party. I could go on here, but those are the main ones that come to mind right now.

2. What general D&D survival tips do you have besides the ones I listed above? My group would appreciate EVERY help they can get since most of us are experienced roleplayers, but relatively new to D&D (most know D&D for about a year, while I changed shortly after 3rd Edition was released**).

When making a new character, make it either an Archer, or a Cleric. Preferably both. Perhaps get a Wizard in there once you have four or so Clerics/Archers. Buff. BUFF. BUFF. You should never enter a combat without at least a few enhancement spells up. Spells to be aware of: Greater Magic Weapon, Magic Vestment, Endurance, Bulls Strength, Divine Favor, Righteous Might, HASTE.

Use your information spells. Commune is your best friend. Always have an escape plan for when things go bad. That right there is perhaps the most essential tip I can give.

3. Please give me some backup to prove them how useless a good rogue really is. It's sometimes very hard to have to discuss against two powergamers who seem to think that fighters rule supreme and all other classes are just there as supporting cast.



Thanks in advance,
Chris

I assume you mean how useful a good Rogue really is? To tell the truth, Rogues are mostly useless in HoFNS. The only use they have is trap spotting, really, and you can avoid those in other ways. Rogues are best when they can use Sneak Attack and their wide variety of skills to infiltrate, negotiate, spy, scout and assassinate. HoFNS offers them little chance to do any of that.


PS

The best advice I can really give you is to read a few of the Story Hours present in that forum dealing with HoFNS. They offer a good idea of what you can expect from the module. I will get links to two stories I found most interesting.

 

[LuYangShih]

First Story Hour: "The better part of valor..." http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=733#post733 A very good read for those interested in HoFNS.

 

[Kweezil]

I recently ran HoNS for a slightl higher-level party (avg.13-14), and it was still a killer, with only slight modifications to a couple of the NPCs. The worst offenders, and neither of these were modified for the higher level party, were Oggunon, who absorbed one PC and almost wiped out two others by dominating the evocation-heavy mage into attacking the party, and Redbone, who used the gazeway to great effect to assasinate one PC (the mage mentioned previously) and almost two others (made their saves by 1!). The combination of her abilities and equipment are really, really nasty (poison + death attack + sneak attack + energy drain *shudder*).

General note: beware the girrallons. They are insanely nasty, sepecially if they rend. The standard encounters with them were almost killing one or two guys each time (and these were fighters. Mages, rogues etc would have been meat to 'em)

My own score for HoNS: 5 (1 absorbed by oggunon, 1 death attacked, 2 killed by the riddle trap, 1 drained by Gulthias) plus 1 sent completely insane.

For advice:

• prepare for everything, even if it's only a back-up contingency plan, have something ready, just in case.
• Magic items that raise/res are hard to get at that level, so cultivate an association with one or more decent-level clerics or even with one of the major churches (people are people. Being know as rich and faithful leads to easier raises).
• Scout ahead with with all the detection spells you can cram onto the scout.
• Use divinations! This cannot be stated enough. Commune, divination and even augury are amazing at knowing what you'll be facing so you ca prepare appropriately.
• (much as I detest it as a DM thanks to rank overuse in my last campaign) Use long-term buffs - bull's strength, greater magic weapon etc. Better yet, get moderate items that duplicate the buffs and useful spells (stat-buffs, flight, haste etc) for some of the party so that the casters have enough spell to buff the rest.

 

[Viking Bastard]

Hey, first we're talking about one of the WotC modules, can
someone list them out for me and in what order they come
(according to character level).

 

[LuYangShih]

Unfortunately I cannot find the other story hour. It is very old, so I suppose it has dissapeared from the boards. It was another parties travels through the adventure path module, and unlike the previous party, Wulf Ratbanes party was successful. Albeit with death after death.

 

[EntropyDecay]

Hey, first we're talking about one of the WotC modules, can
someone list them out for me and in what order they come
(according to character level).

WotC - Adventure Path

1. The Sunless Citadel (Lvl 1)
2. The Forge of Fury (Lvl 3)
3. The Speaker in Dreams (Lvl 5)
4. The Standing Stones (Lvl 7)
5. The Heart of Nightfang Spire (Lvl 10)
6. Deep Horizon (Lvl 13)
7. Lord of the Iron Fortress (Lvl 15)
8. The Bastion of Broken Souls (Lvl 18)

The modules don't depend on each other, so that you can run them seperately. A vague story line connects most of them and this can easily be used to create a campaign if you don't mind a bit of work.

Quality of the modules varies strongly. The adventure my group enjoyed most so far was Sunless Citadel, the one they mostly disliked was Standing Stones. Many reviewers found that Speaker in Dreams was a weak one, but my party liked it.

Since we have the houserule that when your character dies your new character starts at average party level minus one, I inserted two short adventures after Standing Stones to compensate a bit for their low levels.

Entropy
*who doesn't how a party can survive the final battle in the last adventure, Gulthias and his minions seem weak compared to THAT*

 

[Viking Bastard]

Thanks. I'm not be going to be using them, though, I was just
curious on how the structure of the module series was, since I
hadn't realised until very recently that they was any kind of a
structured plan to them.

 

[EntropyDecay]

Re: Re: [Heart of Nightfang Spire] Running the meat grinder...

Let me first say to you, before I answer this and the other questions, that this party is going to die in HoNFS, especially if you play the monsters as they were meant to be played, to their full potential. Even if not, I doubt they will survive. I have seen fully min-maxed parties go into this module and suffer, badly. Your group now lacks even a Cleric, which is essential in this type of module. I can only assume that as the bodies fall, the players will min-max their new creations until they achieve a chance of surviving. But the current roster of characters is going to get shredded until that point. [/B]

I prepared the players mentally before the adventure that there WILL BE casualties in this one. I plan to downgrade most monsters a bit to better suit the parties capabilities and their lower level. This should be a less forgiving and much harder adventure than the previous ones but still manageable for them.
It was hard enough to convince the two players building new characters that some healing capability would not be such a bad idea. So I was glad when one decided to play at least a paladin after he announced that cleric and druid would be right out as classes for him.

When making a new character, make it either an Archer, or a Cleric. Preferably both. Perhaps get a Wizard in there once you have four or so Clerics/Archers. Buff. BUFF. BUFF. You should never enter a combat without at least a few enhancement spells up. Spells to be aware of: Greater Magic Weapon, Magic Vestment, Endurance, Bulls Strength, Divine Favor, Righteous Might, HASTE.

Use your information spells. Commune is your best friend. Always have an escape plan for when things go bad. That right there is perhaps the most essential tip I can give. [/B]

Hmm, their buff capabilities are a bit lower than they were before they lost their cleric. [Note to myself: Check damage reduction and party weapons.] One of the problems with the cleric before his death was that the player prefered offensive buffs far over defensive buffs. I hope the next player with a cleric will selects his/her spells a bit more carefully and balanced out.

I assume you mean how useful a good Rogue really is? To tell the truth, Rogues are mostly useless in HoFNS. The only use they have is trap spotting, really, and you can avoid those in other ways. Rogues are best when they can use Sneak Attack and their wide variety of skills to infiltrate, negotiate, spy, scout and assassinate. HoFNS offers them little chance to do any of that. [/B]

Sorry, but I forgot to mark the sentence as sarcasm. So the "useless" was planned and a placeholder for useful. But back to the topic...
I meant the rogue question in a more general way. How useful are rogues not specifically in this adventure but in most standard settings and adventures? It was clear to me that save a few nasty traps, a rogue is a weak class in this one thanks to the myriad of undeads.
The adventuring tips question was also meant in a general way. So feel free to post general tips how to increase your character survival rate by using certain strategies.

Chris
*whistles "Welcome to the Dying" by Blind Guardian to get into the right mood for tonight*