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D&D 5E Heat Metal Rules Interp / Minor Nerf

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Guest 6801328

Guest
The bolded line above is the flaw in your thinking.

Seriously?

Couldn't you have said, "The bolded line is where I disagree"

or...

"I think there are other options you might have missed"

or...

"Could you elaborate on the bolded part? It seems to me that..."

or even simply

"The bolded line above is where I see a flaw in your argument..."

Social skills FTW.
 

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Seriously?

Couldn't you have said, "The bolded line is where I disagree"

or...

"I think there are other options you might have missed"

or...

"Could you elaborate on the bolded part? It seems to me that..."

or even simply

"The bolded line above is where I see a flaw in your argument..."

Social skills FTW.

(???) "That argument is flawed" does not mean "you're a stupid-head."

But okay, whatever, I edited to change "your thinking" to "the argument." Fine, whatever. Can we get back to talking about 5E now?
 

G

Guest 6801328

Guest
(???) "That argument is flawed" does not mean "you're a stupid-head."

You didn't use the word 'argument' though.

I'm not accusing you of being malicious or intentionally disparaging, but language carries meaning. Sometimes subtly. And I'm still pissed that the "Mike Mearls on Warlords" thread devolved into very thinly disguised personal attacks, so my radar is running hot.
 


It's only really overpowered when NPCs use it against PCs. Enemies normally die so quickly that it isn't broken and most of them don't wear armor.

What?

Most warrior type NPCs that I use wear armor if it is available to them and circumstances permit it just like any sane character. Heat metal can be very effective against such opponents on either side. I don't think the spell is overpowered, against PCs or NPCs.

Yeah its nasty if cast on armor, but its supposed to be. It requires concentration (which can be broken) and only targets a single creature. So the party might be attacked by a band of 12 hobgoblins in heavy armor. ONE of them might be in for a very bad day because of that spell. It eats a second level slot and only takes care of one enemy.

As far as PCs go, heavy armor has advantages and disadvantages. It provides better AC without needing a high DEX, but vulnerability to heat metal, problems in deep water, and steamy jungles are some of the down sides. A smart PC will equip themselves for the environment. If enemies are encountered and have access to the heat metal spell, and a PC continues to wear armor that makes him/her a target for the spell then oh well too bad so sad. Cook like a Perdue oven stuffer roaster and think about your choices.
 

G

Guest 6801328

Guest
Since we are apparently still talking about etiquette instead of 5E, I'll just say http://articles.chicagotribune.com/...20249_1_correct-etiquette-advisers-foreigners

And yes, I'm aware of the irony. Now can we please return to talking about 5E?

Oh? Do you ALSO correct people on their grammar and diction? You are correct: along with informing people that their "thinking is flawed" that is another form of arrogance/pedantry/condescension.

I'd love to discuss 5e some more. Especially when the other participants actually want to discuss, not just edify & correct.
 

Shadowdweller00

Adventurer
Yes but spells are *always* going to be situational. We can use dispel magic and fireball as an example. If you read it meaning that since fireball is capable of doing damage (increases the damage potential) and dispel magic isn't (does no damage), then you'll have to boost the creatures CR up by something (maybe something, maybe nothing, depending on what it's normal damage is). But the fact is, dispel magic is often going to be much worse for a group to deal with if they have casters.
CR is directly calculated based upon monster hit points, AC, damage output, and attack bonus/save DC. Giving the monster some utility effect - for example the ability to fly - may realistically change encounter difficulty, but it has ZERO impact upon CR. Damaging spells deal damage and therefore DO have an effect.

With the Lizard Folk case, swapping out heat metal for some other 2nd level spell may or may not cause the encounter to be any more difficult. It just depends, which is why trying to focus on the exact numbers for determining CR is silly. Also, as the NPC section in the MM states, spells can generally be swapped out without any issue. Same with armor and weapon selection.
These statements are accurate. But not what I was personally responding to.
 

PnPgamer

Explorer
Being targeted constantly doesn't necessarily mean it's bad - it just means that the GM notices you!
tumblr_inline_nrtcm4hmZC1t5iqa6_540.jpg
 

Shadowdweller00

Adventurer
It's only really overpowered when NPCs use it against PCs. Enemies normally die so quickly that it isn't broken and most of them don't wear armor.

As for it being worse than those other spells, that's kind of debatable. Conjure Animals isn't as good as everything thinks it is. There's basically one or two animal choices that make it good.
We are all very much aware of the official spell interpretation. Your assessment of its power is not even remotely correct; and more or less proof you haven't actually seen the spell used. Every attack used against the animals is an attack that is not leveled against the caster or their (original) allies. Most summoned beasts can survive multiple strikes from both PCs AND monsters*. AoE abilities can occasionally remove them all - except that the caster gets to choose where the animals appear, and whether they appear in an appropriate formation. The damage output of even the weakest CR 1/4 beast is considerable when there are 8 of them.


* (For at least the first few levels that Conjure Animals comes into play. Higher-CR monsters can eventually one-shot the summoned critters of course, but the spell can be upgraded to summon more of them so that the attacks neutralize a smaller percentage of the summoned forces).

Spike Growth, IME has no effect at all. You cast it, all the enemies stand still after the first one takes some damage from it, and they use range weapons on the caster until it goes away. Flaming Sphere only does damage at the end of a round that you are next to it, so anyone will move away from it, thereby taking no damage at all. Basically, it is a single target spell that requires a bonus action every round to attack someone.
My experience differs sharply. Many monsters have either no ranged attacks or ranged attacks that are very considerably weaker than their melee attacks. It is furthermore very easy to deny or impose penalties on ranged counterattacks by dropping prone, moving behind companions, or moving behind walls. On top of this, there are a plethora of attacks and abilities that force movement through the area. Including for example: Thorn Whip, Thunderwave, Tidal Wave, the Battlemaster's pushing attack, the paladin's Thunderous Smite, the open-hand-monk's Open Hand Technique. Not to mention the variety of other spells and effects that cause damage if enemies within the spike growth area do NOT move.

Flaming Sphere deals damage BOTH when it is rammed into an enemy (as a bonus action) AND when an enemy ends their turn adjacent to it. While it is frequently simple for enemies to end their turn away from the sphere - it is also occasionally possible to place the sphere in a position where enemies cannot BOTH move away AND avoid attacks of opportunity from melee combatants. In contrast to Heat Metal, Flaming Sphere does not require enemies to be bearing metal armor or armaments, can affect multiple creatures per round, and can be retargeted once the initial enemy has fallen.

Heat Metal still has its (niche) uses. A lizardfolk shaman casting the spell on the party fighter and then ducking down into the swamp muck while the unfortunate warrior cooks is certainly amusing. But it is not the game-breaker that some would claim it is.
 
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Inoeex

First Post
Why are you saying its a super spell? I know the effect, and if you can cast it ... well it will rock!
But where the hell can I get flame during a battle?
Do I need to use flint stones to make fire in a cave first in order to cast the spell? Wich needs 1 minute :/
The piece of metal mentioned in the components is my target I presume? The problem is that damn flame !
 
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