D&D 5E Heat Metal Rules Interp / Minor Nerf

[Oofta]

The caster is targeting the armor to heat the metal. How is a saving throw from the target supposed to end an effect that is targeted on the armor? That amounts to the player having some sort of innate dispel magic ability. As it is, the target gets a save to ignore the pain and thus the disadvantage already.

Changing a spell so it no longer works if you leave range allows for strategies where the party can work some control, opp attacks or proning, etc. to keep the enemy within range. I consider it a pretty big change to allow a target to make a save on a spell that is not directly affecting it.


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How does any saving throw work?

I disagree with your house rule, I don't think it resolves the issue. That's all.

 

[Ilbranteloth]

This came up in our last game session.
My game is set in the jungles of Q'Barra, so the PCs can expect to bump into Lizardman Shamans with Heat Metal somewhat frequently.

The last battle, Heat Metal was cast on a PC and I realized just how powerful it is.

I generally want to play the RAW, but also don't want to unfairly pick on the Cleric, the only PC in Med/Hvy armor.

When I first read the rules quickly, I thought that Disadvantage on attack and skill rolls only applied if the affected item was a weapon or something "droppable". Not armor.
This made sense to me. Disadvantage makes the spell more powerful, but it is is counterbalanced by the affected PC/NPC always being able to drop the item if they so chose.

If Disadvantage applies all the time, Med/Hvy armor would almost always be the most advantageous target.

I wouldn't worry about this normally, but since the PC Cleric is likely to be the most frequent target, I want to avoid him feeling like he's getting unfairly punished.

I'm not sure if this is a (admittedly strained) rules interpretation, or a house rule.

In any case, what are your thoughts in terms of spell balance?

-Kusodareka

If you want to reduce its effectiveness, reduce the amount of metal it can affect. A suit of armor being too much metal.

Having said that, your rule could make sense as is. First, the heat is spread over a larger area. Second, you will frequently hold your weapon with your bare hand, where armor is worn over a gambeson and other padding/clothes, so doesn't have as large an impact.

Having said that, the spell itself is obviously most useful against creatures in armor, and would probably be developed to specifically target armor. Perhaps it can do that at higher levels?

 

[Ilbranteloth]

Well, that's not the way spells work. Even so, you're talking about spending at least two whole rounds to get rid of the effect. Assuming the caster doesn't just follow you.

Really? So if they were teleported 5000 miles away, the caster can maintain concentration?

I'd have to look through other concentration spells to see if I agree with that assessment, but it seems awfully powerful.

 

[werecorpse]

First sentence on page 203 PHB addressing the issue of range. Once the spell is cast its effects aren't limited by its range.

So if you are burning from having had heat metal cast on you and teleport 5000 miles away then if the caster concentrates and uses a bonus action you burn again next round.

Heat metal is one of the two spells I've nerfed. In the case of Heat Metal its to allow medium and heavy metal wearers to not have to worry about a completely debilitating no save 2nd level spell.

 

[schnee]

Generally, I don't see the imbalance in the spell as written. The caster could be using spells that are bigger area of effect, doing more damage to more people, and having much more impact on the overall battle.

Also, spellcasting monsters rarely have War Caster or Resilient: Con. Focus fire on them. Force CON saves. Even if it's a piddly arrow or sling, minimum DC 10 checks add up. Casters that have Heat Metal also tend to be controllers, and they should be prioritized anyway.

Can't do that because they've hidden themselves? Cool! They then can't cast other spells at the party, so their total damage output is reduced, and the effectiveness of the enemies as a whole is reduced. That Cleric will soak a few rounds of damage, probably have to blow a healing spell on themselves, but that's better than the Heat Metal frying them while being peppered by attack cantrips at the same time.

It's also less damage per round than a typical Warlock cantrip.

--

Specifically, in the jungle case, I'd think it through, sandbox-style. Do these lizard creatures face humans often? If so, how many of them are from metal-heavy cultures? Do they have any metal in their own culture at all? How advanced is their tactical thinking? Are they currently at war, or would the groups they encounter be more of a scouting nature?

Now, once they party encounters them: Have the parties let any survivors go, who can go back to the rest of the community and share what they saw of the invaders? How much time has passed since the party got there? How many casters are there in the entire local lizard community to draw from?

That way, you can think of it in context.

I could totally see this: the first few sorties of lizard creatures the party encounters are optimized for jungle foes. If they let any of them escape, however, then the group as a whole can prepare better. Maybe one of them saw the 'metal one' cast spells and knows how dangerous that person is. In 24 hours, maybe a few of them prepare heat metal in anticipation.

If the party blitzes into the core of the lizard community before 24 hours have passed, they won't encounter it. If they spend a long rest before getting there, however, they'll face the spell.

Also, the closer they get to the main lizard creature home, the more likely it is they encounter older, more experienced casters who have dealt with human incursions before. There probably aren't many of them, but a couple might have enough spell slots that having it 'in case' is legit. So, the party will only face them as the danger ramps up and they're in the heart of the community.

But, if the party is fast and ruthless enough, they will only encounter it a few times, because they didn't give the lizard people time to prepare.

See what I mean?

 

[dco]

Spells are like that, fire spells are better against enemies with a fire weakness, wisdom saving spells are better against idiots, etc.
The cleric is also free to wear other armors and heat metal needs concentration. I don't see the problem, it's also better if he is the target of the spell, he can heal.

 

[werecorpse]

Re The "free to wear other armour" argument. This is accurate but the ability to wear heavy armour is meant to be an advantage and an element of the character class. If it becomes a liability rather than an advantage that kinda sucks. Wizards are free to use daggers in combat but that doesn't mean an effect that deprived them of spell casting ability is inconsequential.

If you have played a group of lizardfolk Warriors with one or more shamans you will understand. The shamans can just heat metal then hide and do 2d8 a round, no save, no need for line of sight, and if they get a warrior the warrior becomes hopeless in combat. At low level this pretty quickly gets the PC to 0 then to dead.

 

[Warmaster Horus]

But Heat Metal is a second level spell which means you could fight an enemy with it as early as 1st level. You don't get access to Dispel Magic until you are 5th level, assuming you even take it. Your party might not have anyone who can cast Dispel Magic at all and even if you do, they might not have prepared it (given the limited number of things it works on, it's not the best choice for a 3rd level spell if you have no idea what to expect. There's at least a 50% chance, probably more, that in a day of adventuring you don't need to cast it at all, making it a waste of a prepared spell). Also, monsters often don't create balanced groups and don't often even have spellcasters but they might wear armor. If we are considering the spells power, we have to consider its use in both monsters and PCs. Since there's so many reasons a group might not have one particular spell, let's assume the majority of groups don't have it and it's a lucky coincidence when they are able to stop a Heat Metal with a Dispel Magic. That makes it not a reliable counter.

As for doing damage to disrupt concentration...that is true of all spells. Using that as solution means you can justify any overpowered spell on the basis that if you do enough damage it'll end. You could make a first level spell that said "choose any number of creatures within 300 feet and at the beginning of each of their turns they make a saving throw or die" that lasts for concentration up to an hour and it wouldn't be overpowered because it could be dispelled or you could do damage to the caster to disrupt their concentration.

In order to determine if something is overpowered you need to see if it is better than the other choices you have at the same level.

Yes, it's D&D. Your PC might die if they're unlucky from time to time. And there are cures for that, too. Honestly, this game is not 'rock-paper-scissors' where every move has an easily-available equal and opposite counter. If you have a PC who dies because they didn't take Dispel Magic at 5th level and were hit with a powerful, persistent Heat Metal then perhaps you take it from then on, or at least a scroll?

And there isn't a spell that kills everyone at low level. That's facetious. Heat metal only endangers those in metal armor, who typically have a fair amount of hit points. If someone is roasting due to the spell then yes, you hit the caster with everything you've got. Or maybe the PC jumps in a pool of water in hopes that the DM will reduce the damage while it's in effect. Or the DM allows a wizard to cast Ray of Frost on the armor each turn and allows the damage from Heat Metal to be reduced by the amount done by that spell. Or the PC dies and you try again.

 

[Oofta]

First, as has been pointed out you can maintain concentration on a spell no matter what the range. A few spells say you can't be on another plane is the only limitation. It's also been specifically clarified in the official sage advice compendium if you want to look.

The other issues is how you build your encounters. Have a party that happens to be strength/heavy armor based? Or even wearing chain shirts? Ones that are well known to the protagonist? The logical thing to do during a confrontation would be to throw in some low level hidden casters that cast heat metal on the party members and then run away. Insta-nerf the party.

But flipping it around, it's also an incredibly useful spell to PCs. Because there's no save the party can always give your BBEG disadvantage for the rest of his life if he's wearing armor. Even if they have legendary saves. Yes, there are other spells that can affect multiple creatures but they have saving throws and can be offset by magic resistance and legendary saves. It's too powerful for a 2nd level spell.

Most of my campaigns ultimately revolve around humanoid opponents, so a lot of boss fights are against people wearing armor. When this one spell is cast every combat against the guy wearing armor and effectively reduces their CR by half it gets old fast.

The spell goes both ways, not fun for the player that wears heavy armor, not fun for the DM that wants to throw bad guys in heavy armor (without always making them immune to fire which also gets old fast).

So I give it a save at the end of every round. Guaranteed effective 1 round, after that maybe not.

 

[Brandegoris]

Its Not a big deal. Doesn't need to be nerfed. Players affected by the spell just need to start focusing on killing the dude that is casting Heat Metal as fast as they can.
This definitely harkens back to 2nd edition D&D
Where poison was save or die for instance. Not everything is perfectly balanced, and that is ok., D&D isn't a video game.

Unless I am wrong , and I might be, If someone smacks the caster of the Heat Metal doesn't he have to make a concentration save of some type or lose the spell anyhow?