Held and reflex saves

[AGGEMAM]

Hang on the answer IS in the rules, here you go ...

From the SRD

Held

Held characters are subject to enchantments that make them unable to move. They are helpless. They can perform no physical actions (but they continue to breathe and can take purely mental actions).

From the SRD

Helpless

Bound, held, sleeping, paralyzed, or unconscious characters are helpless. Enemies can make advantageous attacks against helpless characters, or even deliver a usually lethal coup de grace.

A melee attack against a helpless character is at a +4 bonus on the attack roll (equivalent to attacking a prone target). A ranged attack gets no special bonus. A helpless defender can't use any Dexterity bonus to AC. In fact, his Dexterity score is treated as if it were 0 and his Dexterity modifier to AC was -5 (and a rogue can sneak attack him).

From the SRD

Dexterity

Any creature that can move has at least 1 point of Dexterity.

A creature with no Dexterity score can't move. If it can act, it applies its Intelligence modifier to initiative checks instead of a Dexterity modifier. The creature fails all Reflex saves and Dexterity checks.

Note that a held character DO in fact HAVE a dex score, it is 0(zero) and its ability modifier is -5. So you just look at reflex saves instead and see this:

From the SRD

Reflex:

These saves test a combatant's ability to dodge attacks. Apply a combatant's Dexterity modifier to a combatant's Reflex saving throws.

Since a held character has a dex mod it CAN make reflex saves.

Happy now ?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Happy now ?

It explicitly states that "no Dexterity score" and "Dexterity 0" are very different things.

That's not a valid logic chain.

I'm not saying I disagree that Helpless = No Reflex Saves, but you can't get to it via the "no Dexterity score" quote.

-Hyp.

 

[AGGEMAM]

It explicitly states that "no Dexterity score" and "Dexterity 0" are very different things.

Already edited! Before you wrote this

 

[Hypersmurf]

Gah. You edited after I hit "Reply".

Okay, now read the entry for Evasion, where it says "As with a Reflex save for any creature, a character must have room to move in order to evade. A bound character or one in a completely restrictive area cannot use evasion."

As with a Reflex save.

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Already edited! Before you wrote this

Actually, it says "Edited at 1:33", and my post was at 1:32...

-Hyp.

 

[AGGEMAM]

And where is this quote from, I ask.

 

[AGGEMAM]

Actually, it says "Edited at 1:33", and my post was at 1:32...

-Hyp.

Takes longer than a minute to edit doesn't it ? (60 second rule)

 

[Hypersmurf]

Takes longer than a minute to edit doesn't it ? (60 second rule)

You can edit immediately, I believe - the 60 second rule applies to new posts.

The quote is from DMG p76, the description of Evasion.

-Hyp.

Edit - see?

Re-Edit - heh. Well, I edited it immediately with no problem... unfortunately, my point was lost because the five seconds it took crossed a minute boundary

 

[Celtavian]

re

Obviously the rules are unclear and common sense is often lacking amongst gamers.

Here is how I and those I play with arbitrate held characters:

1. Do not get to make reflex saves aka sitting duck.

Here is how we handle Reflex saves for flat-footed characters:

1. No dex bonus to Reflex save when flat-footed.


.

.. like when you're wearing half-plate.

This half-plate comparison doesn't work. A flat-footed character in Leather armor doesn't get a dex bonus to AC, why would they get a dex bonus to their reflex save if they lose their bonus to AC in Leather Armor? They are caught off guard and unable to react is how we play it. That applies to Reflex saves as well, IMO.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Re: re

This half-plate comparison doesn't work.

Of course it does.

In half-plate, your Max Dex bonus to AC is 0. This in no way affects your Dex bonus to Reflex Save. Why? Because the description of Max Dex Bonus in armor says it applies to your Dex bonus to AC. This is undisputed.

When flat-footed, you lose your Dex bonus to AC. This in no way affects your Dex bonus to Reflex Save. Why? Because the description of the condition says you lose your Dex bonus to AC. No mention of it affecting anything else Dex bonus applies to. If someone attempts to Trip you while you're flat-footed, you can use your Dexterity for the opposed check. If someone shakes the rope bridge you're on while you're flat-footed, you apply your Dex modifier to the Balance check. If someone casts a Fireball while you're flat-footed, you apply your Dex modifier to the Reflex save. If someone shoots an arrow at you while you're flat-footed, your Dex modifier is only applied if negative, because you lose any Dex bonus to AC.

-Hyp.