Held and reflex saves

[Celtavian]

Re

Of course it does.

No, it doesn't. The Half-plate comparison is meaningless because any suit of armor has a limited dex modifier. You could use any suit of armor as an example for the point you are illustrating. It still doesn't mean that a flat-footed person wouldn't lose their dex.

It is fairly obvious to all that the dex modifier to AC does not apply to anything but AC by an exact interpretation of the rules using whatever suit of armor as an example. Even leather maxes out at +5 I believe. Many high level players exceed +5 on their reflex saves, so you could use even leather as an example.

Flat-footed or held on the other hand should be arbitrated using good old-fashioned common sense, not some exact rules interpretation that does not in any way, shape or form properly simulate the effects of being held or being flat-footed.

If an enemy were trying to trip a flat-footed character in my game, they wouldn't get their dex bonus to resist. They could argue until they were blue in the face about what the "rule" says, because I say that common sense says otherwise.

 

[AGGEMAM]

You can edit immediately, I believe - the 60 second rule applies to new posts.

Yes, but not if you have been posting to another thread in between, right ?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Re: Re

Flat-footed or held on the other hand should be arbitrated using good old-fashioned common sense, not some exact rules interpretation that does not in any way, shape or form properly simulate the effects of being held or being flat-footed.

So what you're saying is that in one place where they say "Dex bonus to AC", they mean "Dex bonus to AC", but in another place where they say "Dex bonus to AC", they mean "Dex bonus to AC, and obviously to everything else, 'cos that's just common sense, so we don't need to state it... despite the fact that if we'd left off the words 'to AC' it would be clear and accurate"?

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Yes, but not if you have been posting to another thread in between, right ?

The 60 second rule prevents new messages being added to the database. It in no way affects the update of old messages.

If you post a message in one thread, then post in another thread, then come back and edit the first message, then you would have had to wait 60 seconds between posting the first and second messages, but no time at all between posting the second message and editing the first message.

However, I don't see how that could be considered "editing before I replied", since I replied a minute before you edited...!

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Celtavian - from the Main FAQ:

Being flat-footed negates your Dexterity bonus to Armor
Class, but it does not affect your ability to make opposed rolls.
Your ability to react to danger is somewhat compromised when
flat-footed, but only slightly. For example, you become subject
to sneak attacks, but you make saving throws (even Reflex
saving throws) normally.
If you’re caught flat-footed and an opponent attempts to trip
you, you lose your Dexterity bonus (assuming you have one) to
Armor Class against the initial touch attack, but you make the
ensuing opposed roll normally. You still can use either
Dexterity or Strength for your opposed roll. (The attacker
always uses Strength.)
The same is true for grappling: You lose your Dexterity
bonus against the grab, but you make a normal opposed roll
against the hold.
Bull rushing and disarming don’t require initial attack rolls
against the targets, so it isn’t any easier to carry out these
actions against flat-footed opponents than it is against more
active foes.

-Hyp.

 

[Celtavian]

Re

So what you're saying is that in one place where they say "Dex bonus to AC", they mean "Dex bonus to AC", but in another place where they say "Dex bonus to AC", they mean "Dex bonus to AC, and obviously to everything else, 'cos that's just common sense, so we don't need to state it... despite the fact that if we'd left off the words 'to AC' it would be clear and accurate"?

Yes, you are correct. That is exactly what I am saying. The person who wrote it did not use much common sense when constructing the rule for a "flat-footed" or held character.

If you want to dispute this, I can give you a little experiment. Stand perfectly still, let someone throw a water balloon at you, see how well you dodge it while staying perfectly still. Is that enough common sense for you?

Do the same while completely surprised. Turn around where you can't see a person, then attempt to dodge the water balloon they throw at you while you don't know they are there. Get it?

Try both experiments, tell me how they turn out. Let me know how well people standing perfectly still dodge around.

Unless of course you are saying that a Reflex save doesn't require movement? Or that the dexterity part of the Reflex save doesn't require movement?

 

[AGGEMAM]

The quote is from DMG p76, the description of Evasion.

-Hyp.

And how does that affect anything, it just you must have room to move, and that bound creatures or one in restricted spaces cannot make reflex saves.

Bound creatures helpless, but helpless creatures are not necessaerily bound.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Re: Re

Yes, you are correct. That is exactly what I am saying. The person who wrote it did not use much common sense when constructing the rule for a "flat-footed" or held character.

So you're proposing a house rule?

Unless of course you are saying that a Reflex save doesn't require movement? Or that the dexterity part of the Reflex save doesn't require movement?

By the rules, a Reflex Save requires room/capacity to move (see Evasion), but is unaffected by the flat-footed condition (see... well, every reference to Flat-Footed).

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Bound creatures helpless, but helpless creatures are not necessaerily bound.

Helpless creatures can't move.

-Hyp.

 

[AGGEMAM]

Re: Re: Re

By the rules, a Reflex Save requires room/capacity to move (see Evasion),

Doesn't require the capacity to actually move, sorry, only requires the room to do so.