Hello, I am lawyer with a PSA: almost everyone is wrong about the OGL and SRD. Clearing up confusion.

[pemerton]

Saying a contract is perpetual, though, doesn't automatically mean irrevocable. You need to look at more to figure it out. A contract that is saying that it is irrevocable is pretty clear about what it means.

You are assuming that the meaning of the words "perpetual" and "irrevocable" are given outside the context of their use in the contract. Which is what I am saying is a methodological error.

I mean, here's one natural-language meaning of "perpetual": will last forever. And here's one natural-language meaning of "irrevocable", in the context of an agreement or arrangement: unable to be brought to an end by an act of will.

On those meanings, then, because will last forever entails is not able to be brought to an end, and a special case of is not able to be brought to an end is is not able to be brought to an end by an act of will, something's being perpetual would entail it being irrevocable.

Of course, the natural language meanings I've canvassed aren't the only way those words can be used. But arguments about the variety of natural language meanings, and the logical relations between them, won't settle the interpretation of any particular contract. That's a matter of construction of the terms of that contract in their context.

 

[gban007]

You know Greg, I'm not having a private conversation between paid professionals here. We're just gamers discussing on an online forum, and I'd appreciate it if you would at least pretend you think we're all equal here. So no, I'm not "arguing with publishers". I'm partaking in an open group discussion between anonymous internet users. And that particular discussion has very clearly ended anyway, so... yeah.

Seems a bit ironic posting this in a thread where lawyers are giving their views, and people are generally accepting that the lawyers likely have a better opinion of the legal situation - whereas what you're saying above suggests their opinion shouldn't have any more weight than any other person posting, so their knowledge and expertise counts for nothing. I guess we can also discount what this anonymous RyanD poster has to say about what WOTC's original intentions of the licence were, and come up with our own speculations that would have as much weight.

I fundamentally disagree with your take that people who have identified themselves as publishers, and indeed some of them have their names quite clear and distinctly identifiable and happily name what they are associated with (and so not really anonymous unless you think they are lying)- suddenly have no clout when it comes to talking about what publishers may or may not be doing.

 

[Greg Benage]

You know Greg, I'm not having a private conversation between paid professionals here. We're just gamers discussing on an online forum, and I'd appreciate it if you would at least pretend you think we're all equal here. So no, I'm not "arguing with publishers". I'm partaking in an open group discussion between anonymous internet users. And that particular discussion has very clearly ended anyway, so... yeah.

I somehow feel less anonymous than you, Captain. In any case, because it might actually help, take a deep breath and go back and look at your responses to @jgbrowning. Here, I'll copy-paste for you:

Eh, you might want to look around you. You're the only one still in the play garden - everybody else has left.

Nobody is willing to risk the future of their plans on what a court is saying - especially since WotC has so clearly shown itself to be hostile to the idea to continued peaceful coexistence; even if the courts decide clearly against WotC, that victory would still be pyrrhic.

It's dead, Jim.

That's a publisher you're dictating to. Does that really seem like "open discussion" to you?

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

You'd be surprised. In case I don't always make it clear, I've been in the hobby since 1975. I can promise you there were not as many third party games as there are in the modern period, simply because the PDF market and modern digital preparation tools has dropped the entry bar so low. Even the extremely cheap production quality of some 80's games had more overhead than that.

Seriously man, sometime get on DTRPG and select "core books" and don't screen for anything else. There are over 15000 hits. And that doesn't even count the people who don't go through DTRPG. That's ignoring "non-core books".

As I said, you might have more ongoing lines of games in the 80's and 90's now (I'm not sold on it, but its possible), but individual games and products? Not even.

Oh, I was exaggerating a bit, but there was a LOT of stuff out there, even in the days of like GENCON X, which was probably about the the time things got real crazy. But that's my point, it isn't OGL doing this, its the fact that you can publish an RPG for ZERO DOLLARS and potentially even get paid for it if you are good enough at a little PR to Kickstart it.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Yes - better than Leagle Eagle. I got the impression LE isn't an IP lawyer, at any rate he didn't engage with the important Idea vs Expression dichotomy.

Right, but ANY argument on this ground is dangerous. What is STR, CON, DEX, INT, WIS, CHA? Is it an idea, ability scores as a way of rating characters ability to do things, or is that specifically the expression of a more general idea (ability scores in the abstract). This is a lot like the Monopoly board; game boards in abstract, and even the details of a 'path' made up of spaces, may be purely an idea, but if you label those spaces 'Mediterranean Avenue', 'Community Chest', 'Baltic Avenue', 'Income Tax', 'Reading Railroad', etc. then you are very seriously likely to be getting a C&D letter from guess who!

This is the problem with ANY 'D&D-like'. Exactly where is the boundary? Can I have hit points, levels, character classes? Where exactly is the line between abstract concepts, standard terminology, and protected expression? The only path to finding out is long and expensive, and you won't outspend WotC...

 

[mamba]

This is the problem with ANY 'D&D-like'. Exactly where is the boundary? Can I have hit points, levels, character classes?

yes to all of these, have you seen any CRPG in the last 40 years? They all use this, much too late for WotC to claim anything.

Probably even to the same 6 ability scores. Tunnels & Trolls had 5 of them in 1975 and nothing happened, so any chance of WotC doing something now is gone. If you want to be real safe do not make it the exact same 6, just like T&T did not

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

yes to all of these, have you seen any CRPG in the last 40 years? They alll use this, much too late for WotC to claim anything.

Probably even to the same 6 ability scores. Tunnels & Trolls had 5 of them in 1975 and nothing happened, so any chance of WotC doing something now is gone. If you want to be real safe do not make it the exact same 6, just like T&T did not

Well, I'm not going to claim any deep knowledge of what would constitute forfeit of a right to action in copyright, but the mere fact that YOU got away with something doesn't automatically mean I will! And even if ONE guy didn't cross the line, doesn't mean the NEXT guy didn't. Nor does any of this matter when someone with 1000x more resources to litigate than you is asking the question...

And this is the real issue here, who is going to ACTUALLY dare to license their D&D-like under ORC? Or CC for that matter. Once you are no longer operating under the auspices of the OGL, with its allowance for you to use various WotC-published SRDs worth of terms and game implementation, you are most certainly a lot more likely target for action. This seems, IMHO, even more likely if the 'sort of thing' you are making, a TTRPG, is of the same sort as the original work, another TTRPG.

Remember, TSR stopped GARY GYGAX from publishing an RPG!

 

[Ruin Explorer]

This is the problem with ANY 'D&D-like'. Exactly where is the boundary? Can I have hit points, levels, character classes? Where exactly is the line between abstract concepts, standard terminology, and protected expression? The only path to finding out is long and expensive, and you won't outspend WotC...

So people really, for absolute god's sake, STOP PRETENDING IT'S JUST ABOUT WHO SPENDS MORE.

Just stop it!

No, stop it!

You should be chased out with broom for this behaviour at this point!

You have to spend a certain amount, but this is IP law, not litigating the exact damage massive chemical dumping caused over decades.

Companies with no money have caused HUGE PROBLEMS for gigantic entities like Games Workshop before. See GW v CHS. GW lost most of IP claims there. They got $25k out of CHS, and an agreement to stop making certain things, and that's it. At the cost losing tons of IP claims and indirectly causing GW to abandon WHFB in favour of Age of Sigmar.

yes to all of these, have you seen any CRPG in the last 40 years? They all use this, much too late for WotC to claim anything.

Probably even to the same 6 ability scores. Tunnels & Trolls had 5 of them in 1975 and nothing happened, so any chance of WotC doing something now is gone. If you want to be real safe do not make it the exact same 6, just like T&T did not

This is true. The end result, if WotC tries to claim this stuff, will just be a court going "NOPE" to WotC repeatedly.

And money isn't going to change that. You don't get to appeal or spend more money just because you feel like it. The legal system does have rules.

 

[Hussar]

Well, I'm not going to claim any deep knowledge of what would constitute forfeit of a right to action in copyright, but the mere fact that YOU got away with something doesn't automatically mean I will! And even if ONE guy didn't cross the line, doesn't mean the NEXT guy didn't. Nor does any of this matter when someone with 1000x more resources to litigate than you is asking the question...

And this is the real issue here, who is going to ACTUALLY dare to license their D&D-like under ORC? Or CC for that matter. Once you are no longer operating under the auspices of the OGL, with its allowance for you to use various WotC-published SRDs worth of terms and game implementation, you are most certainly a lot more likely target for action. This seems, IMHO, even more likely if the 'sort of thing' you are making, a TTRPG, is of the same sort as the original work, another TTRPG.

Remember, TSR stopped GARY GYGAX from publishing an RPG!

Well, considering on the front page of this site, right now, they are talking about WOIN using a new license and not the OGL, I'd say that it's quite possible we will see more and more RPG's doing so. Granted, WOIN isn't a d20 game, it's a d6 dice pool, there isn't much chance that we won't see d20 like games coming out in the near future.

 

[mamba]

Well, I'm not going to claim any deep knowledge of what would constitute forfeit of a right to action in copyright, but the mere fact that YOU got away with something doesn't automatically mean I will! And even if ONE guy didn't cross the line, doesn't mean the NEXT guy didn't. Nor does any of this matter when someone with 1000x more resources to litigate than you is asking the question...

I am not saying it is easy to create a clone, I am saying there is an easily identifiable safe zone. Beyond that zone it gets murkier, so tread carefully.

WotC cannot sue everyone out of existence either though, and they know it too, they will pick their battles

And this is the real issue here, who is going to ACTUALLY dare to license their D&D-like under ORC? Or CC for that matter. Once you are no longer operating under the auspices of the OGL, with its allowance for you to use various WotC-published SRDs worth of terms and game implementation, you are most certainly a lot more likely target for action. This seems, IMHO, even more likely if the 'sort of thing' you are making, a TTRPG, is of the same sort as the original work, another TTRPG.

well, Paizo thinks they can do so with PF2, Kobold Press thinks they can navigate it. WotC will watch both closely, so the murky waters might get clearer

Remember, TSR stopped GARY GYGAX from publishing an RPG!

yep, because he could not fight them. Had he had a different name they would not have bothered though, I do not think we have someone with that name recognition now