Hello, I am lawyer with a PSA: almost everyone is wrong about the OGL and SRD. Clearing up confusion.

[Ruin Explorer]

I mean, look at this silliness with Google and Oracle! 70 years of industry reliance on the non-copyrightability of APIs and headers went 'poof' and they have made it stick!

No they didn't, but you may have missed it because it was during the pandemic.

Google LLC v. Oracle America, Inc. - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[GMforPowergamers]

That's not how IP law works. It's not just a win/lose binary like criminal law tends to be. You'll win/lose on various specific IP issues.

That's why the "big guy" has a ton to lose. Because it's not a win/lose binary, it's rolling a dice repeatedly over and over and over. You will lose some of them.

that sound intresting... could you give an example? What could they lose (other then the OGL becoming permanent non revocable)?

 

[Ruin Explorer]

It is exactly relevant. If WotC really wanted to make the point, they could pick someone with equally small resources and a very D&D-like game.

And in 2023, they'd be on the front page of dozens of gaming magazines, the guy would be doing interviews on video, WotC would be having to say "no comment", and legal crowdfunding would be involved.

It really seems like you're stuck in 1990 on this.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

They didn't actually stop him, by the way, this is just re-writing history. I have a copy of Dangerous Journeys right here. It doesn't seem very "stopped" to me.

TSR made some sweeping and wild IP claims against GDW who were publishing Dangerous Journeys. If they had gone to court, they would have lost a huge number of them. That's not a maybe, TSR would have. They might even have lost all of them, because they were extremely far-fetched stuff. In modern courts it might even be suggested that those claims were so bad that they were an abuse of process and the judge might have censured TSR and the relevant bar might have censured the lawyers bringing the case.

Anyway, they got to court and GDW decided they couldn't make enough money off Dangerous Journeys to make it worthwhile to fight WotC, so they did an out-of-court settlement.

If Dangerous Journeys would have been more likely to make real money, or if legal crowdfunding had existed back then, or if it was in a modern court, the outcome would have not been the same.

Its easy to be mighty sure of yourself when you don't ACTUALLY have anything at stake. Nor are you necessarily right, TSR could have won, and a litigant could win today too, you can't say without doing it. History is rife with people who were SURE of X, Y, and Z until the chips fell.

And the outcome here is exactly what is likely today, the defendant realizes they are staking their entire life savings and possibly even future earnings against the hope of maybe making a few bucks selling a game. DJ wasn't going to make real money, and neither is any other RPG today (PF1/2 might marginally be an exception, maybe Warhammer?) So, I profoundly disagree that a 'modern court' is any different from a 1980s court, sorry.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

And in 2023, they'd be on the front page of dozens of gaming magazines, the guy would be doing interviews on video, WotC would be having to say "no comment", and legal crowdfunding would be involved.

It really seems like you're stuck in 1990 on this.

and other then holding up that it was last week an OGL product, I can't imagine how they could make a case...

Rifts looks a lot like 2e D&D
TORG looks like Vampire and 2e had a baby... both predate the OGL by at least 10 maybe 15 years.

I can't imagine "They are useing a d20 for attacks" is going to get far.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

that sound intresting... could you give an example? What could they lose (other then the OGL becoming permanent non revocable)?

So let's assume the OGL 1.0a doesn't hold up. Because if that holds up, it's basically case over - and WotC will want it to be too.

Ok so then WotC has to say that the company are doing an IP violation - likely a combination of trademark and copyright. This is what happened in both TSR v GDW and and GW vs CHS. In both cases the "big mean company" got a giant list of trademark and copyright violations, many of them very far-fetched, and threw them at the "little poor company".

GDW decided not to fight, despite the weakness of TSR's case, I think in part honestly because Dangerous Journeys was never going to set the world on fire. So they reached an out-of-court settlement.

CHS, on the other hand, in 2013, did fight, and GW lost about 60-70% of their IP claims. Including the ludicrous claim that "big shoulderpads" were somehow GW IP.

Because they lost some of the claims, CHS ended up paying $25k. Not a huge amount. GW, on the other hand, realized that now people could much more freely and safely make competitors to GW products, because loads of things people thought were "risky" when CHS were doing it proved to be completely fine. And a court case said so.

This lead to GW renaming huge numbers of lines, and it even seems to have been part of what lead to Age of Sigmar being created, because one of the main things Age of Sigmar does is eliminate older, more "generic fantasy" models, and instead to put in tons of wackier and wilder fantasy stuff that's more specific to GW, and also it renames tons and tons of factions to unique stuff which they can potentially make IP claims on (Orc goes to Orruk, Elf goes to Aelf, Dwarf goes to Duardin and so on).

So, I profoundly disagree that a 'modern court' is any different from a 1980s court, sorry.

Then you just don't know what you're talking about, sorry. That's pure ignorance.

You didn't actually answer any of my points, I note. And "TSR could have won" illustrates a fundamental failure to understand how IP law works. No, they could not have, not without losses. Many of those claims would never have stood.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

No they didn't, but you may have missed it because it was during the pandemic.

Google LLC v. Oracle America, Inc. - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Yeah, we know, but note that the most critical legal point was never decided, and Google still had to appeal to SCOTUS, which costs, you know, 8 or 10 million dollars by the time you get done with the trial and 2 levels of earlier appeals, minimum! They went to trial on a principle that was assumed open and shut for 70 years and lost multiple times. ONLY the fact that they are a massive money machine allowed them to, sort of, prevail. Even then they stopped doing the thing that got them sued in the first place. Pyrrhus would be proud of you!

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Yeah, we know, but note that the most critical legal point was never decided, and Google still had to appeal to SCOTUS, which costs, you know, 8 or 10 million dollars by the time you get done with the trial and 2 levels of earlier appeals, minimum! They went to trial on a principle that was assumed open and shut for 70 years and lost multiple times. ONLY the fact that they are a massive money machine allowed them to, sort of, prevail. Even then they stopped doing the thing that got them sued in the first place. Pyrrhus would be proud of you!

Only the fact that Oracle are a massive money machine allowed them to even bring the case.

Oracle brought on board literally the most heavyweight, incredible dream team of ultra-expert god-tier Jedi Master IP lawyers that have ever existed.

And still lost.

 

[rozgarth]

I’m sorry if I’ve missed it somewhere in this thread, but a couple of posters have mentioned that the GPL 2.0 has been held to be irrevocable despite saying only that it was perpetual. Does anyone know what case(s) decided this issue?

 

[mamba]

Perhaps, but Gary was as able as any random person off the street to fight this kind of thing. He got his arse handed to him, because it was little guy vs big company! It is exactly relevant. If WotC really wanted to make the point, they could pick someone with equally small resources and a very D&D-like game.

If the little guy does not fight back, nothing is settled wrt copyright, so no one else has to react at all. Alternatively, some others jump in and pool resources because it affects them all