Hello, I am lawyer with a PSA: almost everyone is wrong about the OGL and SRD. Clearing up confusion.

pemerton

Legend
They - assuming you are referring to the licensees - are not the licensors of OGC under the OGL 1.0a. The Contributors, aka the copyright holders, are the licensors under the OGL 1.0a. Licensses do not hold the copyrights. Thus, licensees do not make any offers relating to the OGC in OGL 1.0a..
Here's a simpler, somewhat analogous example.

I agree to let you stay in my house for the weekend, in exchange for paying me $500. Thus, I grant you a contractual licence to stay in my house. You ask, during the course of our negotiations, Can I have people over? and I say "Yes, up to 5 people at a time".

So you ask 5 friends over, but insist that each of them pay you $100 for the privilege.

In this scenario you don't own my house. All you have is a licence. You also have a power to issue sub-licences. And you are making offers to your friends to grant such sub-licences in exchange for $100.

The relevant point is that the capacity to establish a license doesn't depend upon owning the property right. That is one way to enjoy such a capacity. But another way is to have had the owner grant you a power to issue sub-licences. And if you have that power, then everything else being equal you can make an offer to exercise that power in another's favour, as your grant of consideration to give rise to a contract between you and that other party.
 

log in or register to remove this ad


FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
To the best of my knowledge there is no contract between WotC and Paizo in which Paizo is a contributor of OGC. Of course, there is a contract (maybe more than one) between WotC and Paizo in which WotC is a contributor of OGC and Paizo a licensee in respect of that OGC.
I understand that’s your interpretation. It’s not mine. Restating our positions ad infinitum will get us nowhere.
When WotC offers to licence its work under the OGL, which uses the notion of Open Game Content as the principle conceptual device for identifying the licensed content, WotC naturally affixes a notice to its work specifying which content it is licensing. Otherwise its offer would be incomplete or incoherent.
WOTC also affixed the section 2 notice. Not just the section 8 notice.

Maybe a question. When does something become OGC? When it’s designated as such? When it’s distributed as such? When a licensee accepts it as such?

My view would be when it’s designated as OGC and includes the necessary notices. What is yours?
This has nothing to do with WotC being under any legal obligation to provide any notice of anything.
Good thing I’m not making the claim they had a legal obligation to do anything then.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Here's a simpler, somewhat analogous example.

I agree to let you stay in my house for the weekend, in exchange for paying me $500. Thus, I grant you a contractual licence to stay in my house. You ask, during the course of our negotiations, Can I have people over? and I say "Yes, up to 5 people at a time".

So you ask 5 friends over, but insist that each of them pay you $100 for the privilege.

In this scenario you don't own my house. All you have is a licence. You also have a power to issue sub-licences. And you are making offers to your friends to grant such sub-licences in exchange for $100.

The relevant point is that the capacity to establish a license doesn't depend upon owning the property right. That is one way to enjoy such a capacity. But another way is to have had the owner grant you a power to issue sub-licences. And if you have that power, then everything else being equal you can make an offer to exercise that power in another's favour, as your grant of consideration to give rise to a contract between you and that other party.
I agree. But the licensing agreement would specify you as the licensor, not the owner, are licensing the use of the property to the ‘friends’.

The analogy would be more complete if within that licensing agreement you as the initial licensee provided them said the owner licenses the friends to be in the house. That’s how it would mirror the OGL 1.0a.

In this case it’s clearly the owner doing all the licensing.
 


Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
It's obvious. Please stop the 50,000 question pedantry.
It's not obvious. When you use phrases like, "in legal terms" you are making a statement about how the law works. Specific legal terms and processes that mean something in law. You have yet to provide a single legal process that would back you up.

If I were to make a claim about something in the license and say to @pemerton, and this is backed up by X statute and Y case is substantially similar, he would have something to go on. Even if he didn't remember the process or it was something distinctly American in nature, he could look at it and then formulate a reply. He might agree, disagree or be unsure and let me know that he had to think about it, but at least I would have provided him something.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
It's not obvious. When you use phrases like, "in legal terms" you are making a statement about how the law works. Specific legal terms and processes that mean something in law. You have yet to provide a single legal process that would back you up.

If I were to make a claim about something in the license and say to @pemerton, and this is backed up by X statute and Y case is substantially similar, he would have something to go on. Even if he didn't remember the process or it was something distinctly American in nature, he could look at it and then formulate a reply. He might agree, disagree or be unsure and let me know that he had to think about it, but at least I would have provided him something.
Private law contracts. Done.
 


pemerton

Legend
The analogy would be more complete if within that licensing agreement you as the initial licensee provided them said the owner licenses the friends to be in the house. That’s how it would mirror the OGL 1.0a.
Let X be the owner. Let L be the initial licensee. Let F be the friends. How do you envisage X directly issuing a licence to F, whom X has never met and doens't even know exists?

I'm not saying there is no answer to this. But you aren't providing one.

There are two mechanisms I can think of, whereby F gets a licence to be on X's property. One is for F to make L an agent. The other is for F to give L a power to sub-license. The OGL doesn't say anything about appointing agents. (Except in section 9.) But it does confer an entitlement to use, which expressly encompasses a power to licence. So to me it seems pretty clear.

WOTC also affixed the section 2 notice. Not just the section 8 notice.
Section 8 has no application when WotC offers to licenses (parts of) the SRD. Section 8 is a licence term that imposes an obligation on parties who distribute OGC. There is, perhaps, an argument that it is engaged when they distribute OGC in which they own the copyright, and which is not, when published, a distribution of anyone else's OGC (because not derivative of anyone else's OGC). But that obligation is in practical terms irrelevant, because in that circumstance section 2 does all the work. The actual purpose of section 8 is to ensure that downstream parties clearly identify, as OGC, that OGC in which upstream parties have an interest.

When WotC offers to license (parts of) the SRD in terms of the OGL, it is section 2 which is apposite, because section 2 is where WotC sets out a crucial term of its offer, namely, that "This License applies to [the] Open Game Content that contains a notice indicating that the Open Game Content may only be Used under and in terms of this License." Section 2 also states obligations that are incurred by parties who take up WotC's offer.

Maybe a question. When does something become OGC? When it’s designated as such? When it’s distributed as such? When a licensee accepts it as such?

My view would be when it’s designated as OGC and includes the necessary notices. What is yours?
By "designation" I take you to mean WotC specifying what parts of its SRD it is prepared to license as OGC in the terms set out in the OGL. This is a statement of an offer. It is a specification of what content WotC is prepared to licence, and the OGL sets out the terms of the offer. A piece of copyrighted text actually becomes OGC when it is governed by contractual obligations that deploy the concept of OGC. The concept of Open Game Content has no meaning outside such a contractual context. And no contract comes into being until an offer is accepted.

I understand that’s your interpretation. It’s not mine. Restating our positions ad infinitum will get us nowhere.
The difference is that I am actually setting out interpretations that are explained using the standard common law concepts of contract law, property law and contractual interpretation. You are not using any clear legal notions. You say stuff that makes no clear legal sense. I do my best to conjure some genuine legal meaning out of it (eg that you think the OGL is a pooling agreement; that you think the OGL makes downstream licensees agents of upstream licensors; that you are supposing an offer in itself to have the legal force and effect of a contract) and then explain why that is not the case. And all you do is reiterate your assertion without actually engaging with the legal reasoning.

I understand why you don't engage with the legal reasoning - you lack the expertise to do so. What I don't understand is why you continue to confidently assert your view. What do you think you are adding to peoples' understanding of their rights and obligations under the OGL?
 
Last edited:

pemerton

Legend
Private law contracts. Done.
What does this mean? You clearly don't grasp the difference between an offer, and a contract that results from an offer being accepted. You can't explain what consideration is, or how the OGL establishes a contract by having consideration flow in both directions. You can't articulate the difference between the contract and the licence that it establishes, and the way different parties might be involved in these various legal states of affairs.

The purpose of this thread was to support informed discussion of the OGL. I don't agree with everything the OP has posted, but all @DavyGreenwind's posts are clearly expressed, using orthodox legal reasoning. They all make sense.

I don't understand what you think you are contributing by essentially making stuff up that bears little connection to actual modes of legal analysis and legal reasoning in the private law of the US and other common law jurisdictions.
 

Remove ads

AD6_gamerati_skyscraper

Remove ads

Recent & Upcoming Releases

Top