D&D General Help a newer DM with homebrew world ! How do I complete the story !

[zebby]

1st, Thanks alot everyone for the inputs. English isnt my main language, and I'm trying my best to be clear.
I really appreciate the time you all put to answer me, but I cant answer to everyone of you. and for some reason, everytime I write something, I sound angry, but I assure you I'm not. I just want to keep the discussion on what I want / need, and not on random advice to run a campaign which don't apply to our group.

So, to make things clear : I've been playing d&d for 20+ years. With the same guys. I know them. I know how to play, and what they like. I know what you should and should not do as a dm. My problem isnt there. (and there is about 1000's post on different forum about do and don't of dming, and I'm not looking for it).

"dont write the ending yet, let the PC build it " ...
Remember 2 of the players are 10 years old. In their 1st game. 1st RPG. One of have never played RPG video game. The game is for them to enjoy. They dont have the experience needed to 'develop' and enjoy a dynamic open-world like story, and neither do I have the DM experience (or the wish) do to that.

Think LOTR. Gandalf come to hobbit PC minute 1 of the story, and says : "yo dude, this ring represent Evil. Go toss it into the volcano of doom to win." Clear, simple objective. Long term. difficult.

But right now, I'm comming to the hobbit, and I tell them : "yo dude, you have to do 'something'."

Quick ez exemple of what Im looking for :
You have to grab this black soulstone and diablo 3 style imprison the soul of a legendary beast (Game style #1, monster hunter).
With it, walk into this spot, in middle of province 5 controled by this evil lord and his army (Game style #2, birthright).
Cast this old ritual, which you need to find first (Game style #3, D&D).
So I'm looking for concept/ideas/mechanic to explain how you 'earn' a title, and how I can present it to players.
Maybe they have to summon the Nature God itself and slay it ( or the Sun, or w/e I dont mind the story part of it, since theres no point in looking for it. I need the component of what they should be doing )

Is it clearer this way ?

 

[zebby]

That’s a lot to unpack!

My first reaction is “Don’t write the ending yet”. For now, don’t worry about a win condition, you’re a bit early in the campaign. Let the characters develop a bit, and then it should become easier down the road to build towards an endgame. Just be aware, some campaigns don’t work towards a final confrontation/ending, they just end when the current story is done.

You have an opportunity here as you haven’t yet defined an endgame. Get the player’s input - subtlety or overtly - to find out from them what they may want. Let the players come up with a few ideas how to get their Noble friend his title and then choose one and go with it. Players are a creative bunch, they might just surprise you.

Also, I’d steer away from the X, Y, Z chapter progress. Mix things up a little bit and don’t let it get too predictable. A quest out of the ordinary will be refreshing from time to time and can shock the players out of complacity from rote adventuring.

Finally, you might want to consider that at some point during the campaign, switching sides might be tempting/the right thing to do. These are two complex forces/gods at work and rarely is one 100% good/bad, and it might be a “point of view” sort of situation where they discover there was a good reason for the God of Nature/Chaos to act the way they did (after all, the Sun God did go to sleep for a few hundred years on his worshippers….maybe its not as caring as it lets on, or Order may even be oppressive, like the New Order of Star Wars).

Hi !

thanks for the input. I do agree I dont have to get the definite answers yet, but atm, the story 'ends' with noble getting crowned. I just don't know how "getting the title" works, and have no inspiration of a good way to transform it into a quest.

I can try to get the players ideas, but the 2 main PC are 10 years old. Remeber, it's their 1st game so they have no frame of references for what they like or wants in a campaign.

as for the chapters, there is 0 chance of them going away, that's how the world is evolving. The whole Kingdom and Warfare system is build around it. Call them Domain Action. Month. W/E, it's not important. it's a stepping stone in the story. It's the moment you finally get back to town after your last quest, and you ask the barman how where things when you were away. He tells you a dragon was seen seen flying over the mountain and peasans are calling for help, while the friendly neighbooring kingdom is fighting the undead scourge to the east, and that the Thief Guild kidnapped a princess last night. This is a chapter. The PC decide to go kill the Dragon. They fail, and seek help from the blonde elven general princess and her a special dragon-killing lance artefact. Takes them a full month. After they decide to pay the lonely wizard a visit to have their boots enchanted with dragon's scale. When they finally come back to town, it's time for a new chapter. They will learn that their neighboors have been replaced by an undead kingdom, and the Thief Guild got a huge ransom, and are now much stronger and are causing additional chaos they have to deal with.

as for your last point : Im my original story the Nature where the good guys. The history of the world was based on multiple invasion by Sun's fanatical and suicidal Crusades. But the 2 kids decide to be part of the Sun kindgom. Hence they are now the good guy. (the older kid even wrote a cool backstory about being a spy controlled by a shadow demon and he got hit by sunlight and it purified him, and that's why he's good, because all the evil was burned out of him by the Sun.)

 

[Tonguez]

Birthright alrwady had a system of Domain Random Events and Actions and there are other similar Random Event lists around (either retail or free via google). I’d just run with those for ideas of what the PCs might be facing

eg a Great Captain event means you tell your PCs “a Champion of the neighbouring Lord has been demanding payment of food and coin from citizens living in one of your vilages -how do you respond?”

As to Final Victory ideas
1 Total Conquest - conquer the 7 Lords (by War or Diplomacy)
2 Kill All Monsters
3 Collect the 7 Parts to build the Artefact of Power
4 Kill the gods

Id still advise asking the players questions about their own goals - the answers of 10 yr olds can be suprising

 

[zebby]

Birthright alrwady had a system of Domain Random Events and Actions and there are other similar Random Event lists around (either retail or free via google). I’d just run with those for ideas of what the PCs might be facing

eg a Great Captain event means you tell your PCs “a Champion of the neighbouring Lord has been demanding payment of food and coin from citizens living in one of your vilages -how do you respond?”

As to Final Victory ideas
1 Total Conquest - conquer the 7 Lords (by War or Diplomacy)
2 Kill All Monsters
3 Collect the 7 Parts to build the Artefact of Power
4 Kill the gods

Id still advise asking the players questions about their own goals - the answers of 10 yr olds can be suprising

Yea, I have random events table for the kingdom part. I picked out cool enemies and small concepts ( 5 door dungeons, cool concept, interesting 1 shot monsters ) and turn them into small encounters that will happens randomly and make sense in the game.

For the final victory, I'd like to incorporate those 3 parts together. Both kids wants a different system (monster hunter vs birthright). Saying to the party : "you can ignore both, and go kill the 7 evil boss to win" feels not like a good idea. I want them to feel their interest is included in the win condition to give them a accomplishment to have 'complete' it, and I want to have a part of each include in it. I just don't know how to thematically weave them together.
Haaaa ! ok, I think I actually got an idea by answering you. Killing the God, or it's Avatar might be a good idea. I'd go with giving them hints on how to 'invoke' a God into the living realm. Id start with basing this on RL physics and wind pressure. Gods have an 'amount' of magic they can invest in the realm. If you remove all magical/divine presence, it creates some kind of emptiness that NEEDS to be filled. If you activate an artefact, or a Ritual, that actually drags down magical power from the god, and these 2 forces combine and the god is dragged down on your plane because the pull and push together would be too big. I can incorporate killing the legendary monsters, and desecrating Natural sanctum (birthright conquest) would create a the empty void on that continent, and the d&d component would be the Artefact.

And than you can invoke the god. and I could even put in a surprise betrayal. Some priest of the sun or whatnot is helping them ... and surprise, in the end he does this because he wants to absorb all the power of nature for himself.

 

[Tonguez]

Yea, I have random events table for the kingdom part. I picked out cool enemies and small concepts ( 5 door dungeons, cool concept, interesting 1 shot monsters ) and turn them into small encounters that will happens randomly and make sense in the game.

For the final victory, I'd like to incorporate those 3 parts together. Both kids wants a different system (monster hunter vs birthright). Saying to the party : "you can ignore both, and go kill the 7 evil boss to win" feels not like a good idea. I want them to feel their interest is included in the win condition to give them a accomplishment to have 'complete' it, and I want to have a part of each include in it. I just don't know how to thematically weave them together.
Haaaa ! ok, I think I actually got an idea by answering you. Killing the God, or it's Avatar might be a good idea. I'd go with giving them hints on how to 'invoke' a God into the living realm. Id start with basing this on RL physics and wind pressure. Gods have an 'amount' of magic they can invest in the realm. If you remove all magical/divine presence, it creates some kind of emptiness that NEEDS to be filled. If you activate an artegact, or a Ritual, that actually create a big force that drag down magical power, and the 2 situation combine to force the God down on your plane because the pull and push together would be too big. I can incorporate killing the legendary monsters, and desecrating Natural sanctum (birthright conquest) would create a the empty void on that continent, and the d&d component would be the Artefact.

And than you can invoke the god. and I could even put in a surprise betrayal. Some priest of the sun or whatnot is helping them ... and surprise, in the end he does this because he wants to absorb all the power of nature for himself.

I like that and it reminds me of a reverse Birthright (instead of Regents drawing power from the gods, instead they try and pull the gods in) - maybe use the idea that PCs need to establish Leylines linking to the “7 Sources of Power” which are scattered around the world. Some of the Sources are guarded by Monsters, others are ‘lost’ (Dungeons) and some already claimed by rival Lords. Players will need to try various things to get access to each Source of Power which when linked by leylines will summon the gods.

infact have you considered making some of the Lords be awnsheghlien (Monsters) themselves? Like the Hydra or even the Gorgon - that way you combine Monster hinting and Warfare onto the same event

 

[LordEntrails]

Here's my blunt reply:
If you want a complete story, write a book, don't run an RPG. Even for ten year olds, "teach" them to play RPGs with player agency and mutual story telling, not to participate in a movie/story that is a railroad.

More nuanced response:
Drop the thought of "winning" and "losing". RPGs are about fun, challenge, and maybe about shared story telling. You have done a great job of building a complex and interesting environment in which to play. Let it play out and see where it goes. You are wanting to do what I did when I first started DMing, tell a story I thought was great. But I have learned that the game is more fun when the story emerges from the interactions of all the participants.

They dont have the experience needed to 'develop' and enjoy a dynamic open-world like story, and neither do I have the DM experience (or the wish) do to that.

Yes they do. The ten year olds will do just fine. Guided by you and their dads, it will be just fine.

You may not have the wish to, but you have the ability to do it just fine. And you really will find it more rewarding in the long run. Even if the thought of doing so is uncomfortable. You can do it! We believe in you

 

[zebby]

I like that and it reminds me of a reverse Birthright (instead of Regents drawing power from the gods, instead they try and pull the gods in) - maybe use the idea that PCs need to establish Leylines linking to the “7 Sources of Power” which are scattered around the world. Some of the Sources are guarded by Monsters, others are ‘lost’ (Dungeons) and some already claimed by rival Lords. Players will need to try various things to get access to each Source of Power which when linked by leylines will summon the gods.

infact have you considered making some of the Lords be awnsheghlien (Monsters) themselves? Like the Hydra or even the Gorgon - that way you combine Monster hinting and Warfare onto the same event

Hoo ! good idea, thanks. I havent tough about awnsheglien directly. I could have them play a more dynamic roles in the birthright system, true. I didnt want all 3 important bad guys of all 3 sections to be the same 7 dudes.

Monster Hunts will needs information gathering, tracking of the lair, gethering hints from past encounters and clues from battle site, testing different strategies and retreating before things gets too dangerous before they can really take them down. Fighting head on will result in a TPK.

I wanted the 7 Chaotic champions to be the BBEG of the D&D section (like a whole group instead of a single bbeg) .

As for Birthright, I only though just about random enemies already living on the continent, but I like the idea of 7 awnsheglien bosses controling 7 factions and you must destroy 'em, or break their links to the Nature God with manipulating leylines.

I though about it since last time, I'll give a % score to represent the Natural energy on teh continent (starts at 100%). And each time the PC destroy natural stuff ( taking control of a leyline and turning it to the sun, killing a legendary monsters, killing the 7 chaotic champions, etc ) I'll lower the %, so it'll give them an opportunity to progress the story no mather what they do. It gives me an ez way to control the pacing of the campaign, as I can decide some events lower dramatically the % to hasten the climax of the story, depending on how the game progress.

I can also link it with a concept I put in the game : power easily attainable that corrupts. They can use a corrupt version of their base class power ( the Druid shapeshift have 'enlarge' cast on him, so he can shapeshift into a large bear, the barbarian rage gets a stronger version more like a werewolf ( he use the path of the beast, giving him bite and claw attack when he rages, stuff like that.). When they do use it, they get a corruption point, which is counted by putting a dice or their color (they each have a color) in the "Hands of Fate" ( a skeletal hand holding a wine cup, my wife's halloween decoration).

At certain point, I roll all of the corruption dice, and they get a curse for each 1 I roll. (small curse like : "animals hate you and will always target you 1st", "at 0h00, you fall dead asleep, and can only wake up when touched by the sun at 6h00 am", small stuff like this. They each will eventually get a more important curse, personal to them and their storyline.

I could make it that the lower the continent Natural God energy is, the stronger their cursed ability become, as more and more power from the God leaks down below, it's more enticing to use when facing the bosses of the game, and it explains why the ability scale better with their level.

 

[zebby]

Here's my blunt reply:
If you want a complete story, write a book, don't run an RPG. Even for ten year olds, "teach" them to play RPGs with player agency and mutual story telling, not to participate in a movie/story that is a railroad.

More nuanced response:
Drop the thought of "winning" and "losing". RPGs are about fun, challenge, and maybe about shared story telling. You have done a great job of building a complex and interesting environment in which to play. Let it play out and see where it goes. You are wanting to do what I did when I first started DMing, tell a story I thought was great. But I have learned that the game is more fun when the story emerges from the interactions of all the participants.


Yes they do. The ten year olds will do just fine. Guided by you and their dads, it will be just fine.

You may not have the wish to, but you have the ability to do it just fine. And you really will find it more rewarding in the long run. Even if the thought of doing so is uncomfortable. You can do it! We believe in you

thanks, but for my blunt response : We've been playing for 20 years, I know the kind of gamers I'm dealing with. I don't know why I should teach them your way of playing, when we don't play like that. And they won't play with you either ... Your way of doing D&D isnt the only one. and it's not the best. it's one way of playing D&D. and that's why it's such a great game.

As for my more nuance response :
I wasnt the DM for the most part, but if I ask them to play 'open-world' they'll sit in a tarvern, and WAIT until something happens.
They play bash the door, kill, loot, level up. They hardly role play, I'd say a game is about 5% RP to 95% killing. One of them told me he's a dwarf. End of his backstory. it's not what these guys wants. They want to kill stuff. If I find a way to put a story on top of it, that's awesome (his words when I tried to talk with him about the campaign). They are litterally making an effort to play something a little closer to a d&d game to incorporate the kids, so I expect a 15% RP to 85% kill game.

"Let it play out and see where it goes."
no. I cannot. I'm the one who decide "where it goes". I decide what the NPC says. If I'm not prepared ... it'll go nowhere, and NPC wont even answer back. I'm not good at improvisation, and I'll never be. I prepare choices , arcs, and path PC can take, and PC decide what they do on the path, and which one they pick. Like a good Final Fantasy RPG. If you walk around town to annoy me and to speak with every, single NPC. they will ALL answer you the same stuff. I dont do an Elder Scroll game, and the players I'm gaming with like it this way. That's why they wanted me to be the DM again like the last 2 campaign we ran. ( And if you say " but Elder Scroll is 100x better than ANY FF game ever done" , I'll respectfully drown you with holy water, since you clearly crawl out of a hellpit ). And sadly, the harder you manage to get me out of my comfort zone by working to steer away the game from my planning, the the harder you'll be railroaded back into it.

"The ten year olds will do just fine."
On game one, the younger one told me he was a flying druid. who shoots laser with a divine sword that could cut everything. And when he lands on earth, everywhere he walks, it starts fire because he leaves lava behind that melts the ground.
Yes, they have the imagination. they don't the ability to ground it into a realistic frame. You have to give them rules, and they'll eventually understand what they can and can't do into the confine of these rules.

I cant from week 3 ask them what they like out of a campaign, they have 0 freaking clue what a campaign is, and they don't know if they even like d&d. Atm, they just want to be part of our weekly gaming session, since they can eat chips, drink soda, and be with us, while they normally are not allowed in the man-cave while we laught hard, and seems to have fun.

 

[LordEntrails]

Hmm, quite the challenge. I still have faith in you though

So to win the campaign, why not require 7 McGuffins to perform the atom bomb ritual? Each kingdom controls one and so they must take over each kingdom to obtain it. And you can even say that you don't get to face the 7 campions until you Birthright style take over their kingdom.

So then you have 7 kingdoms to conquer, 7 heroes to defeat and then a ritual to perform opposed by the avatar of the nature god to defeat.

How's that for a way to win?

 

[zebby]

Hmm, quite the challenge. I still have faith in you though

So to win the campaign, why not require 7 McGuffins to perform the atom bomb ritual? Each kingdom controls one and so they must take over each kingdom to obtain it. And you can even say that you don't get to face the 7 campions until you Birthright style take over their kingdom.

So then you have 7 kingdoms to conquer, 7 heroes to defeat and then a ritual to perform opposed by the avatar of the nature god to defeat.

How's that for a way to win?

trying again, since last time the post got erased, I don't know why.
Ok. so, that is close to what I wanna do. I'll use tonguez idea of the awnsheglien as birthright boss. I wanted each 3 sections to have their boss clearly separated, since I didnt want them to bring their army facing a BBEG when they are suppose to play a d&d section.

My problem question with this is : "What are the 7 mcGuffins ?" I see each of the 7 Chaos Lords as a representations of the 7 Sins. It make sense that they each own something that distinguish them from regular foes, and empower them, and when you collect them you can summon the god. A gems that sockets into a gauntlet of infinity-style artefact could work.

I need to think on how I can represent these 'McGuffins". It's a bit too gross to say they have a gem on their forehead, so kill them and rip it out, but ideally, something distinctive that makes sense gameplay wise (like a Magic Focus representing each of their sin, an earring with a moon symbol, etc ). Something that they could see on someone, and realize right away they are dealing with a strong boss. When the fight begins, they all touch the focus, say a specific prayers, and "transform" into their corrupt form.

But how can I make it evident enough that these magical focus can be merged into an artefact ... ?