Help an 7th level Rogue Archer

[ScotMartin]

Hey everyone. A fellow PC in my adventuring group is playing a Rogue with a focus on his archer abilities (Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot feats).

The problem is that as our party moves into the 7th/8th level range, he's becoming less effective than the rest of us in combat. The fighters and spellcasters are able to do more and more damage as they level up, but all of his extra damage is tied up in a target being denied its dex bonus. After the first round of combat, it's very rare for that happen, so he almost never gets to roll those extra dice of damage.

In our last combat, we had a very tough fight with a Bone Devil. His DR of 10/good made the Rogue almost completely irrelevant, as the most he could do without a sneak attack or a critical was 10 points of damage.

Now, I realize that the obvious solution would be for him to take Weapon Finesse at 9th level and start flanking with a rapier, but the player would prefer not to become a melee type character. So, I'm hoping this board can help out. Are there some feats, prestige classes. tactics or magic items out there that would allow him to keep playing a Rogue Archer the way he enjoys, but would also allow him to deal out enough damage in combat to not feel useless?

Thanks,
-Scot

 

[Rackhir]

Well a rogue is not going to be an optimal archer, he doesn't have enough feats or likely the Str to get the max out of a bow. A high str is really required to get the most out of being an archer since it adds substantially to your damage.

That said, well, some sort of imp invisibility will let him flatfoot most opponents (those who can't see invis).

The PHB II has an option for rangers where instead of getting animal companions, a sucessful attack will flat foot an opponent vs the rest of the group for a round. (I'm not clear on all the details so check it out first).

Greater Magic Weapon is still one of your best friends as an archer.

Don't forget that as an archer it's easier to get a variety of special material arrows for overcoming DR. So do some shopping.

But still keep in mind that rogues are not intended to be first rate combatants. That's the fighters job and the mages fill the artillery roll. So expecting to be as good at combat as the classes that specialize in it is unreasonable. He does a lot of other stuff they can't do and is better at a lot of stuff they can do with regards to skills.

 

[painandgreed]

Stand back and plink for what little damage you can do. That's what Thieves used to do in 1E. If the fighter stands back while you are looking for traps, then you can stand back while he is fighting.

However, the solution that my rogue had was to take Use Magic Device and use wands. With wand of magic missles and a wand of CLW (both off people we killed), my rogue was able to add much to combat. At your level, it would still be iffy and take up lots of skill points, but the ability to use magic items adds allows you to fulfil whatever roll your magic items allow. Even if you failed in your rolls to fire off the wand, you'd still do more damage over several turns against such DR creatures.

 

[kenobi65]

First of all, I disagree that an archer can't be effective at higher levels. In one of our groups, my wife plays a 13th-level ranger on the archery path, and she is just a terror in combat. So, while the rogue may not be the best way to go about that, it's still possible to be effective.

1) Enhance the carp out of that bow. Holy is a wonderful enhancement, esp. against critters like that bone devil. Energy enhancements (flaming, frost, whatever) are nice, though they become less useful at higher levels, when a lot of the foes (esp. outsiders) have energy resistances. Keen can also be very nice (critting on 19-20, for x3, can really hurt a lot).

2) Invest in some exotic ammo...cold iron arrows, silver arrows, adamantine arrows, to help overcome DR. Get a quiver of Ehlonna to carry all those extra arrows.

3) Rapid Shot, if he doesn't already have it, can help him deal more damage by getting another shot off. Not so useful against higher ACs, but it can help.

 

[FalcWP]

If available, he could consider levels of the Artificer class (from the Eberron Campaign Setting). It would require a good intelligence and ranks of Use Magic Device, but a few infusions would let him pick the special ability of his bow before each combat. Especially good in situations where you're facing things with DR or, say, undead and other things that can't be sneak attacked. I'm planning to use the rogue/artificer combo in a game we're starting in a week or so, and, on paper, it looks like it'll be a neat combination. Practiced Spellcaster would be a good feat for the character at level 9, since it will ramp up durations and the like.

 

[monboesen]

The archer needs some way of getting Improved invisibility or Blink (both will make most of his shots sneak attacks). This could be by wand, item, friendly spellcaster etc.

He needs a bow with one or more kinds of energy damage enchantment (fire, acid etc.)

He needs a friendly spellcaster, wand, cache of scrolls etc. to cast greater magic weapon at caster level 8,12 or higher.

He needs as high strength as he can afford to get by magic and a composite longbow to match it.

He needs rapid shot and in the longer term improved critical.



He can try to take advantage of the hide skill to do sniping. He can shoot when hidden and make a Hide check with a -20 modifier to stay hidden (and keep sniping).

He could take 4 levels of fighter to get weapon specialisation to up the damage (and later Ranged weapon mastery from PH II to increase it by another 2).

He could take the feat Deadeye shot from PH II to get 1 sneak attack shot per round.



He needs to realise that he will not, and should not, match the other characters damage output as a Thief is skilled at many things beside combat, fighters are not.

 

[Old Gumphrey]

We had this IDENTICAL problem in our group, it started off ok at level 3, then the more levels we got, the more and more and more the rogue just plain old sucked in combat. Sniping is one option, but even with his massive hide check, that -20 penalty is tough to swallow. Furthermore that's got you dropped to 1 attack per round while the fighter is ripping off 2 and 3 swings come 11th and irrelevates (new word) your Rapid Shot.

The actual obvious solution, for continued archery, is Manyshot. Basically at this point if he wants to be a good archer he is required to take Manyshot and use the sniping technique, or he is going to be one sad puppy. Also on bows he is wanting extra dice of damage, not extra plusses or special abilities. That means a +1 flaming frost shocking bow is preferable to a +4 bow. The mantra of our rogue was "after the first round, I deal suck damage". Another option is to grab a level of wizard or sorcerer and go arcane archer for elves.

I imagine the rogue has low-ish Str stat and a shortbow, which further complicates his problem. The main problem with being a rogue archer is that, well, quite frankly, they are terrible at it. I could give better advice if I knew more about the character, race and stats mainly.

Stand back and plink for what little damage you can do. That's what Thieves used to do in 1E. If the fighter stands back while you are looking for traps, then you can stand back while he is fighting.

OP wants ways to optimize archery, so I seriously doubt continuing to suck is an option.

I've noticed a really irritating trend in many groups where rogue, and to a lesser extent, bard, players are perfectly ok with being dead weight in combat. I think it has something to do with that whole "sucking in combat = good roleplaying" mentality. Probably stems back to 2e as well when rogues (then thieves) were utterly god awful in combat, and we liked it.

 

[painandgreed]

OP wants ways to optimize archery, so I seriously doubt continuing to suck is an option.

It's not that Rogues suck but rather that they aren't fighters. They lack the BAB and feats. If he wants to optomise archery over beign a Rogue, then pick up a few levels of fighter or, if PrCs are allowed, Order of the Bow which should be pretty easy for a rogue to get and adds d8's to missle fire.

 

[ScotMartin]

Thanks for all the suggestions. Don't worry, he knows he'll never be, and shouldn't be, as effective as the Dwarven Fighter/Barbarian in combat. This has just come up because of some recent battles where has been very *ineffective*. So, I wanted to find some ways to allow him contribute more without compromising the character type he's going for.

Sounds like our party needs to get him to focus on these areas:

1. Add energy damage to the bow.
2. Get arrows of various special materials to help with strange DRs.
3. Have greater magic weapon available.
4. Look at Rapid Shot, Manyshot and Dead Eye feats for the next time he gets one.
5. Try to get the character access to Improved Invisibility, Blink or a massive Hide skill to increase sneak attack opportunities in combat.
6. Look for ways to increase his chances of landing a critical.

I imagine the rogue has low-ish Str stat and a shortbow, which further complicates his problem. The main problem with being a rogue archer is that, well, quite frankly, they are terrible at it. I could give better advice if I knew more about the character, race and stats mainly.

I don't have his character sheet, so I can't give you too many specifics. I know his strength isn't particularly high, which is why I don't mention composite bows above. As for race, I purposefully left that out as I thought it might send things off-topic a bit. You see, he *was* an elf, but after a death and a "00" roll on the Reincarnate table, he's now a Pureblood Yuan-Ti.

Oh, and we don't have the Eberron book, so Artificer is not an option.

-Scot

 

[ruleslawyer]

I tend to prefer thrown-weapon rogues for the precise reasons that others have presented. That said, I don't think rogues necessarily make such bad archers. Keep in mind that even if your damage isn't so good, archery is enabling you to stay 30 feet away while you attack! The problem with being a melee rogue is that it's all too easy for your enemy to just turn on you and paste you with a full attack.

So, some suggestions:

1) Definitely use the "golf bag" approach. You should be carrying 50 each of cold iron, adamantine, and silver arrows, which takes care of all the material DR. Greater magic weapon on your bow is also a must.

2) A magic bow. I'd suggest a +1 holy bow, to be honest, rather than an energy enchantment. Assuming your party is good-aligned, holy is more likely to be useful against a wider range of foes (probably at least half of what you'll encounter), whereas energy resistances become ubiquitous at higher levels. Don't buy this until you hit about 10th level, though; an 18,000 gp weapon is a heavy hit. If the DM allows incremental enchantments on magic items, start out with a +1 bow and add the holy enchantment once you hit 10th level.

3) Use Magic Device is, of course, a rogue's friend; however, I must buck the trend and advise against wands of blink or improved invisibility. Instead, I would recommend going all the way and investing in a ring of blinking at 9th level. Yes, it's a lot of money (27,000 gp), but it is useful all the way through 20th level and beyond. You don't waste an action to activate it; just use a standard action every 7 rounds to "keep the ring on" and you're golden.

4) Rapid Shot is probably not worth it for this character until he can get his attack bonus up; once that happens, though, it's a no-brainer. One extra sneak attack per round is ALWAYS a good idea. I'm not so sure about Manyshot; the restriction on precision-based damage just seems to defeat the purpose, and a -4 attack roll is mighty sucky for a rogue.