Help! Brawl / Brassknuckles / Unarmed / etc.

[DarcKnyght]

Alrighty, now it feels like we are on track. I wanted to know the reasoning behind the answer in the FAQ not just a copy of what I had already read. Imagine your a student and you have just read a passage but do not understand why it was written in that manner. You ask the teacher about it and they read the passage to you word for word of what you just read and say there you go glad I could help. Thats what it felt like thats all. The crack about France aside I am glad to be engaged in actual dialog on the subject.

If you want to deal lethal damage with brass knuckles, you cannot take advantage of any feat that delivers nonlethal damage only. That means you don't get the benefit of the Brawl or Knockout Punch feats.

Ok cool but, why does it say in the book "and turn the damage into lethal damage" in the same sentence as using brawl with brass knuckles? That is were I am getting tripped up. It makes it sound very much like if you want to use Brass knuckles and you have Brawl than you can do 1d6+1 lethal, now you could not use this with knockout punch but you could still do the brawl as lethal damage.

As for Brawl with CMA I have revised my thinking back to what I had originally thought which is to say they are 2 diffent fighting styles so there effects do not stack. You may get +1 to hit with brawl but you provoke attacks of opp and can't use them. With CMA you do not get the +1 because you are actively not provoking Attacks of opp and can make them. That being said though I see nothing that prevents someone with CMA using knockout punch as long as they have taken Brawl and are doing non-lethal dam. To begin with it is WEAKER than the brawl characters especially with Improved Brawl. A martial artist character will not do 1d8 dam until 4th level of the advanced class and then it tops out at 1d10. The Brawling character will be able to do 1d8 at 4th level within the basic classes.

Dareoon I just don't see the imbalance help me. My third level Strong hero has Brawl at first level and say Two Weapon Fighting (always good for that second attack) at second I take Weapon Focus as a bonus feat. At third level I take knockout punch. I have my first 2 talents Melee Smash and Improved Melee Smash for +2 damage. I then slip on a pair of brass knuckles. I have got +2 to hit with Brawl & Weapon Focus and for damage I can now do: (1d6 +1 for brass knuckles +strength bonus +2 Melee Smash) x2 = around 12 Minimal if counting +2 str bonus. But averaging 16 points of damage. Then at 4th I open it up with Improved Brawl. (Now averaging 18 points of damage, who am I not knocking out at this point or at least dazing)?

No look at it the other way. The character who is training to be a Martial Artist starts out as a Strong hero as well (just to get there as fast as possible) At first level I take CMA and again Two Weapon Fighting. At second level this character will also take Weapon Focus Unarmed. At third level I have to take DMA to get into my advanced class. Now at third level my unarmed punches do +1 to hit for weapon focus and then (1d4 +[no plus for Brass knuckles apparently they do not work for this character] + Str bonus + 2 melee smash) = 5 minimal or 8 maximum unless a crit hit. At 4th level I get my advanced class and now do (1d6 +2 Str + 2 Melee Smash) now averaging 7 points of Damage. Who exactlly am I knocking out?

AND at 6th level forget about it! The straight Strong hero gets Improved Knockout Punch and lets say street fighting. woa as Neo would say DAM: (1d8 +1 brass knuckles +2 Str +3 Melee Smash) x3 + 1d4 = 22 points of damage minimal and 46 points maximum. Sweet I am knocking out the Gods (Being silly there)

And what about out intrepid Martial Artist? At 6th level he has not even raised his damage capacity to 1d8 yet (that will be next level).

All I am saying is I just do not see why the Martial Artist can not benifit from Knockout Punch as well. If he did at 6th level he would still only be doing (1d6 +2 Str +2 Melee Smash) x3 = 15 points of minimal damage and 30 points of Maximum damage. Compare the two.

For house ruling that CMA can be combined with KP, I'd be careful. As I said in my eariler post, if a character goes on to take the prestige class then they will be capable of knocking every oppenent out that they face.

And a 6th level Stong Hero is not?

 

[Dareoon Dalandrove]

I think that you may have miss calculated your numbers. You’ve got brass knuckles and brawl (1d6 +1) and melee and improved melee smash (total +2 dmg). Plus 2 for str. That is a max of 18. Knock out punch and improved knock out punch only works on the first attack.

Now in the first round max of 29. ( knock out punch and another attack)

The route that you suggest does get you going quicker but the Comabt Martial artist will be better in the longer run. Brawl and martial arts are totalu different and shouldn't stack. Brawl and the knock out feats are all out blast of power. Martial arts are controlled. Different just by the mechanics of the movements. At fourth lvl (first lvl of Martial artist) I find that you are capable of doing about the same amount of damage with out brass knuckles.
Feats
Simple weapon
combat martial arts
defensive martial arts
two weapon fighting
2nd lvl
power attack
3rd lvl
heroic surge
PRC
living weapon

Talents are the same
melee and improved melee smash.

3 attacks that deal d6's plus 2 for str, plus 2 for IMS. 22 points of dmg max.

Both MA and Brawler can do some dmg, I'm not arguing that. I'm saying that combining the two can get you into trouble. Why not go for the super man combo of KOP and MA prc? The idea is balance. If you combine both it gets crazy.

At 6 lvl you could take improved combat MA and improved two weapon fighting. You would be able to make 5 attacks in one round with a crit range of 19-20.

 

[DM_Matt]

The plain wording of the rules indicates that Brawl and CMA stack almost entirely.

So does real-world logic.

This was a big controversy when the game first came out.

Apparently, Charles Ryan disagrees with what he wrote, and has issued a FAQ changing the rules. I would bet that a very large majority of those who do not look on the web for dnd information are playing d20M as if they stack.

If you don't want to go with the changes, feel free to ignore them. If I ever DM a 20M game, I certainly will. It does not change the fact, however, that the FAQ is "official" and authoritative.

 

[Mistwell]

How is it logical that attacks that do nonlethal damage only should stack with attacks that do lethal damage? I don't see how that is logical at all. One is all about perfecting the rabbit-punch. The other is about perfecting your ability to kill someone with your bare hands. It's a different skill set. It involves a different manner of striking someone, a different place on their body to strike them, different muscles used in the strike, and different experience in knowing how hard and where and how to strike. It seems logical to me that the two sets of feat trees should not stack with each other. Saying they should all stack because they both involved unarmed combat is like saying that you know how to drive - therefore you know how to drive a car and pilot a helicopter and sail a boat.

Darcnight, as for me quoting the rule back to you - that simply is not what happened. There were two rulings, let's call them A and B. B overrules A. You posted A. I said "Hey, take a look at B, I think it might clear some things up for you." And you attacked me for it. And since then your explanation is that I had simply quoted back to you what you had already read. Except you gave NO indication at all that you had already read B, since all you did was post the already overruled A. You've apologized, but then you follow up with a qualification - as if you were totally justified in attacking someone who was trying to help you.

I think at this point we should drop it, and hopefully next time either of us is looking for advice it will go a little smoother. We are all trying to help each other out with this new set of rules.

 

[DarcKnyght]

eer quite frankly I did drop it even after your insulting remark about the French which you seem to think was just fine. If you'll notice I went back on topic each time to try and turn this into a discussion. As I will again right now.

I do not advicate the stacking of the abilities of Brawl and CMA. I am simply saying that it is not overpowering that CMA users have access to knockout punch as well.

Dareoon check your math: brawl & brass knuckles 1d6 +1 +2 Str +2 improved melee smash THEN the crit modifier = 22 max dam on a x2 crit & 33 dam on a x3. But if you think in terms of a 3 on a d6 roll being avarage then your looking at 16 dam first punch on x2 and 24 dam on x3. I know it is just the first strike but that is all I am talking about letting CMA users get that knockout chance on the first hit as well.

I also beg to differ that CMA is all about "killing someone with your barehands" I have players who do not want to kill anyone, unless neccasary. CMA does lethal & NONLETHAL you choose. So when my CMA users are doing non-lethal dam why shouldn't they beable to try for a knockout punch in their first hit as well. Like I have demonstrated it is not overpowering to let them do this. In fact the feat is even worded in a way that does not prohibate it.

Special: Even if you have the ability to treat unarmed damage as lethal damage, the damage from a knockout punch is always non-lethal.

Just because you have to have brawl to get the feat does not mean it can not be used with the non-lethal use of CMA. Well it seems cool to me anyway.

 

[Mistwell]

Correct me if I am wrong (and I certainly could be), but don't you have to take a -4 penalty to your attack if you try to use Combat Martial Arts to do nonlethal damage? And, if that is correct, doesn't that added difficulty represent your lack of experience in doing nonlethal damage with that kind of blow? In my opinion, that is why Knockout Punch cannot stack (i.e. be used with) Combat Martial Arts - you are inexperienced in making nonlethal attacks with that kind of blow.

As for my crack about the French - I sincerely apologize for confusing you with being French. Now that I know you are not, in fact, from France (just living there out of circumstance), I am very very sorry I accused you of being French.

 

[Dareoon Dalandrove]

I'm not taking into consideration the crit modifier. crits are another thing. It's your choice to do what you want, but remember that if your a dm and your players everytime they hit at the beginning of combat they're knocking your villians out it's going to get dull real quick. the combat martial artist is capable of knocking people out. they just do damage and knock them out. It's two different fighting styles. There has to be clear choices to make. Advantages and disadvantages to both styles. If you want to allow your CMA players to have KoP over all my sugesstion is that you can only get knock out punch not improved. Your setting yourself up for the ultimate combo gamers. Also remember that additional material is going to come out.

 

[DarcKnyght]

Hey Mistwell, thanks for the dialog on this topic. No you do not take the -4 penalty when using CMA to do non-lethal dam.

I agree Dareoon that if the players knock everyone out on the first hit, (It hasn't been the case) then it would get dull very quick but the 3rd level normal characters with just Brawl & Knockout punch can almost already do that. The Martial Art characters (which for me is all about being specialized in unarmed combat) don't have nearly the same chance to knockout opponents. It sort of takes the wind out of the sails of the character that wants to be the cool unarmed fighter guy.

I like the new system of unarmed fighting better than subdual dam but my players do not like to have to resort to lethal dam, just to keep up with the brawling characters. The best fix for us is to allow CMA players to use Knockout punch when they are doing non-lethal dam. Granted they have to burn a feat (Brawl) to get it, but that is cool because it balances out later when they do not need Improved Knockout Punch because they get the x3 crit from Adavnced CMA. (Keep in mind this is still balanced becuase the pre-req is BaB +8 & Improved Knockout Punch is +6.

Well, the best thing if you are actually interested in this topic is to just give it a try. Not in a full game situation if you do not want to, but as a play test. Make a couple of characters, give one CMA using character Knockout Punch, one without, and a brawling character with knockout punch. Keep them all equal levels (at any maxed out, tweaked out level you want or low level minimal stats and stuff) and see who can do what. Not necessarly against each other but as a team that has to infiltrate in secret into a guarded place from 3 different entry points.

We ran this scenerio and many other like it with varing degrees of characters. (We ALWAYS extensively play test any potential changes, though quite frankly we don't really have any except for the very few like this)(I am not one for changing things as they are written but in this case, we are not. It is just an interpretation of what is already written in the book.)

In fact we like testing the game as much as playing it. We found no flaws or off balances with allowing CMA users access to Knockout Punch.

The other BIG problem my players have with resorting to lethal dam to get a bad guy knocked out is that if you can not drop him in your first attack he can raise an alarm. With knockout punch, you get him knocked out or dazed and can then get in without rasing the alarm.

Just my 2 cents and thank you Dareoon for dialog on this topic as well.

 

[DarcKnyght]

AN epiphany was had today. (During a 2 hour lunch break...yea its nice) If players have to take Brawl before they can use it with CMA there is no point to using it with CMA until they are much higher in level. ie. It can only be used against flat-footed opponents and they being flat-footed do not get attacks of opp anyway. Hence no danger and still doing the 1d6 dam + whatever x2. There is of course now the nashing of teeth and the clamering that I should change the pre-reqs of Knockout Punch to: Brawl or CMA, BaB +3 like I had previously hypothosied. Hmmm...

Final Thoughts...

Brawl & CMA effects do not stack. The Ultimate unarmed fighter has a combination of both fighting styles to be really effective. ie. Take Brawl & knockout punch for that quick take down and the CMA chain for actual combat.

Brass Knuckles: add +1 to your unarmed damage and make the damage lethal (you can do non-lethal but at the -4 to hit like with all weapons) they can be used with any fighting style you know ie. Brawl 1d6 +1 lethal or CMA 1d4 +1 lethal (no big diff) etc.

Well thats life in our world.

So until next time...

Take care of yourself... and each other.