HELP! DM/Player Issues

[gfunk]

So a quick bit of background:

1) IMC we have a house rule where one player cannot suggest actions to another player in the middle of combat (e.g. you should really tumble that way, Gorak). In the event a player blurts out advice, the recipient cannot use it, even if he was going to do it. This has made us keep our mouths shut.

2) This rule holds for our DM as well -- we don't suggest things to him during combat and vice versa.

Here's the situation:

A Pit Fiend appears in our location. My Sor 14 (Hasted) sees it and casts Hold Monster on it, beating its SR and the devil fails its Will save becoming paralzyed. As my readied action (partial action from Haste) I say, "If the Pit Fiend tries to use any spell-like abilities, I hit it with a Scintillating Sphere (a firebal doing electric damage from MaoF)." Thus, I clearly knew that though the fiend was paralyzed it could still execute purely mental actions (like spell-like abilities). BTW, I rolled a Knowledge (The Planes) when I first saw the fiend and got a 30, so the DM said I knew that it could teleport at will.

The DM does not know that Spell-Like abilities can be used while held. Therefore, he has one of the fiends allies grab it and try to carry it away while it recovers from the Hold. However, the party manages to kill the fiend's ally and then coup-de-grace's the fiend.

After combat, I ask the DM, "Didn't you know that you could still Teleport away?" <This was done in a gloating manner since we were drunk with the euphoria of slaying a Pit Fiend>

The DM got very pissed and accused me of cheating. He said that I deliberately witheld information with him. The truth is that when the fiend's ally grabbed it, I was pretty certain that the DM didn't know about Spell-like abilities but did not say anything.

In the past, I have pointed some things out to our DM that he forgot such as Damage Reduction for monsters (despite our house rule). In one case I summoned a monster against a creature with +2/20 DR (the summoned creature was using a +1 weapon). Seeing that the DM wasn't concerned about the DR, I told him about it and the summoned creature did minimal damage.

The DM says that the issue with the Pit Fiend was a "rules clarification" and not "strategy." Therefore, I should have told him about it.

Please give me your comments or suggestions.

One final thing, I really, really enjoy playing with my DM and group. This is one of the few serious arguments that we've had. So finding a new DM or group is not an acceptable option for me.

Thanks!

 

[Crothian]

It's the DM's job to know the abilities of the creatures he is using. I see no excuse for not knowing the rules. THe DM is the official of the game. How can he run a game if he doesn't know the rules?

However, in the future you might want to be a little more lenient with him since he is going to upset. Next time, take a note card and write it down. Tell him thereis information on it that may be strategy or may be relivant info. It's up to him to decide which it is and if he wants to read it. He can read it and still not use the information. DMs have to keep from meta gaming just like everyone else.

 

[Gumby]

I'd reconsider your strategy for staying in character. Try just a penalization of a nickel in the soda box or something whenever someone starts giving out-of-character strategy in combat. This way, there's nothing standing in your way of helping the DM during play, and after a while, there's more Coke to drink.

True, the DM should know this stuff, especially remembering things such as damage reduction, but everyone is responsible for keeping the game's rules consistent, not just the DM.

In any case, I think the current house rule is a little too restrictive, open to interpretation, and can lead to weird situations like the one above.

 

[Umbran]

As has been said, it is the DM's job to know the rules. It is not the player's job to give the DM information that would make the fight more difficult. If the DM had asked a direct question, then you should give correct information. But expecting you to spontaneiously volunteer tactically relevant information would be like expecting a chess player to inform his opponent of the best moves to use against him.

As for your "no speaking" rule, there's a simple in-game way to deal with this - Speak is a Free Action. While you cannot have detailed conversations and debates using free actions, you can say, "Gorak, tumble that way!" Gorak may not understand why, but it covers it in part.

 

[Illuminae]

ask him this question:

"If I were trying to cheat you, would I be so naive to ask you that question about the spell-like abilities after the game? Im not that dumb"
If you come to the conclusion that you should have acted different than you did, well, everyone makes mistakes.

Hes your friend, after all, isn´t he?

 

[Kichwas]

I'd seriously reconsider the no 'advice in combat' rule.

There are a number of reasons:

1. It causes silly situations like above.
2. The PCs can talk as a non action anyway.
3. The PCs have a much more intimate grasp of the reality they are in than the players do. So a little OOC chatter can go a long way towards balancing this out.
4. Is it a tournament or a friendly game? There's nothing wrong with a little chatter here and there.


In the game I play in we regularly make comments to the DM and each other.

Sometimes stuff like "Selise is going to take a five foot step to try and get out of the summoned swarm; allthough -I- know the Druid can move it, she doesn't."

In which case we're pretty much telling the DM that his NPC can do something to us...

We routinely suggest ideas when it's appropriate or when we as a group seem to feel a certain character (PC or NPC) would know something that the person pulling the strings at the moment seems to have missed.

It rarely harms our game; we're all adults and we know when to screen player knowledge from character knowledge. As in the above example from our session (with my PC), we take the action our character would do not 'our character with a copy of the rules and DM notes in her hands'.

 

[Dracolich]

First of all, I think it's the responsibility of everyone to stress the rules both players and the DM. The DM should not have to have every single rule memorized, it's just not possible.

I think that the issue above is a rules clarification more than a strategic issue. My reasoning is, the Pit Fiend knows what he can and can't do and teleporting would have been the first thing he should have tried to do. It wasn't about the fact that the DM didn't know the Fiend could teleport, it was that the DM didn't know the Fiend could use spell-like abilities while being held.

 

[Dieter]

My 2cp.

As stated here, in the PHB, and DMG...speaking is a free action.

Therefore it should most definitely be allowed, and really...do expect your players to sit idley by and watch Gorak run full speed into the clutches of a waiting (for example) Pit Fiend? I wouldn't do that as a fellow player and common sense dictates I'd want to keep my friend alive (at least long enough for me to escape the Pit Fiend).

I suppose you'd do nothing if you saw your friend walking across the street as a truck was barrelling down at him/her.

"Well, since I'm not can't say anything, I guess Bob/Jill will get hit by the truck. Oh well, that's the rule."

That's illogical and flat out stupid.

Simple commands or suggestions that are in reasonable earshot (i.e. no silence spells, grinding noises, howls, etc.) are and should be fair game. The game is meant to be party oriented and not "every person for themselves". Teamwork should be encourage and never penalized.

As for the players being responsible for reminding the DM of rules, well...that's the DM's job not the players. Personally, I would never argue in my favor or give the DM assistance in my death...that's also illogical.


Again, this is my 2cp. It's your game and if everyone is agreeable on a house rule, so be it.

 

[Eryx]

In my games, I rely on the players to remind me on things like that. In the middle of combat, I can't remember half the AoO rules, so I have the players remind me when/if such can occur.

You were right however, not to say anything about the spell-like abilities. That sort of thing, he should know. I have to ask why he's your DM if he doesn't know the rules/abilities.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

This problem can go both ways. The last DM I played with never remembered half the powers of the monsters he decided to throw at us. I stopped bothering to remind him of things when I realized that the only reason we were surviving the battles was because he was not using those powers.

If your DM forgets minor things it is not a big deal. If on the other hand he does not figure in certain powers when creating the encounter your reminding him can turn what was intended to be a tough battle into a complete slaughter of your PC's.