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Help: Gap between AC and defenses seems too large.

After reading the development of this thread, I think the issue is clear: So far your party has faced monsters that almost exclusively target AC. If this stayed the same in the future, everyone would rationally do everything they can to pump up their AC, even if it means ignoring NADs. The solution is to bring in a reasonable number of monsters that attack NADs.

Looks like another monster-writing binge then. (I'd just spent a week making "standard-flavor" soldiers too. *Sigh*) I'm thinking attacks like "Smashing Hammer" for the less exciting villains.

To be perfectly clear, @(Psi)SeveredHead, Hide Armor Expertise would make the barbarian's AC -lower-, not higher. So it would make his NADs (except reflex) higher in comparison and his AC lower. It treats his AC as if he has a Dex/Int of 14, so he could be 19 AC/20 fort/14 Reflex/17 Will with HAE. It's not possible to get a higher AC with HAE than you can without, as it's always trivial to get a Dex or Int of 16 if you're willing to pay for it.

It's probably not hugely relevant anymore, but this confused me a heck of a lot. I thought the feat gave +2/+3/+4 AC; I didn't know it depended on his ability scores.

Your PC's however have NADs that are higher than average, and have AC's that are lower than average.

That was the part I was finding confusing. I can find a solution for my campaign anyway, but really, they have high NADs compared to "average" groups? If I were to start GMing another campaign, I'd be worried about the size of the gap. (It can be bigger? Really?)

It makes me wonder if, in other campaigns, controllers (or, really, anything that targets NADs mostly, but controllers usually get that +1) are the scariest opponents out there.
 

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OnlineDM

Adventurer
Their NADs didn't seem high to me relative to their ACs. At 4th level with inherent bonuses, I would expect most characters to have NADs of:

10 (base) + 2 (half level) + 1 (inherent) + 1 (race/class) + 2-5 (ability score) = 16-19.

If it's a race/class that gets no bonus to a particular NAD and the PC puts nothing better than a 12 in the relevant ability scores, you could see as low as 14 for a NAD, but that's the worst case. Everyone should have at least one NAD of at least 18 (whichever is based on their key class ability). Your characters non-armor class defenses seemed pretty normal except for the 22 Reflex on the Rogue and the 13 Fort on the Bard.

And 22 is a very high AC for a level 4 character. The best you can have at level 1 is 20 (plate and heavy shield). The best you should be able to have at level 4 with inherent bonuses is therefore 23 (plate, heavy shield, +1 inherent, +2 half level). So, your Rogue is right up there with a heavily armored fighter in terms of armor class.
 

I don't know, I think I agree with the people saying that it isn't broken. Unless you and your players aren't having fun.

My campaign is at 3rd level. The knight has an AC of 24 (which can be boosted even higher by the warpriest), so sometimes I need to roll an 18 to hit him. Meanwhile, the thief has an attack bonus high enough that in our last game he rolled a 2 and still hit.

But that's their shtick... the knight is supposed to draw and deflect attacks, and the thief deals out incredible amounts of damage. Take this away and the players get frustrated.

So I wouldn't try to make any math changes by giving out free feats or making house rules. If your players really think it's an issue, they can take feats or buy magic items to bolster their weak points (and you can hand out magic items with this in mind).

Maybe it just comes down to getting creative with your tactics. I found that my encounters got a lot more challenging when I started having the monsters ignore the knight (even risking his battle guardian opportunity attacks) to go after the glass cannon thief.
 

Saeviomagy

Adventurer
Rogues hit on 2s. That's what they do. Artful dodgers don't get hit as they run around the battlefield - again, that's what they do. Rogues in general are hard to hit, but hitting them really hurts, and they often need to take on a fair bit of risk to max out their damage.

The players strategy guide has a neat little table for expected values. I believe it places a reasonable attack value vs AC at 10 (so your players are falling a little low). I don't remember the other numbers, but my guess is that your players will be above the line on NADs, and below on attack bonus: they all seen to have diversified their stats some.

That's most likely the reason for your perception that monsters become too hard to hit once they hit your players reliably.

Anyway, one of the important things to remember is that in 4e, the way to make a battle harder is NOT to increase monster levels. If a monster hits twice as often, it does twice as much damage, sure. But the same damage output can be gained from having 2 monsters, and noone will be whiffing then.
 


Saeviomagy

Adventurer
Dungeons & Dragons Roleplaying Game Official Home Page - Product (D&D Player's Strategy Guide)
http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-discussion/276810-players-strategy-guide-d-d-4th-edition-book.html

It contains some general (and generally ok) advice about mechanics and strategy, some advice about not being a jerk, some mathematical breakdowns of things (like this:Dungeons & Dragons Roleplaying Game Official Home Page - Article (Tactics 101)).

And a table of expected attacks and defenses that serve as a guide to the numbers one might expect. I think attacks vs AC are pegged at 6+level, vs NADs 4+level and I've a vague feeling that AC is supposed to be ~14+level.

This isn't a prescription for what makes a good or bad character either - I think it's just intended to make people aware of what the designers had in mind.
 

eamon

Explorer
Their NADs didn't seem high to me relative to their ACs. At 4th level with inherent bonuses, I would expect most characters to have NADs of:

10 (base) + 2 (half level) + 1 (inherent) + 1 (race/class) + 2-5 (ability score) = 16-19.
This is roughly OK, though you're off in a few details. You're overestimating the ability scores (for a teriary score it's not reasonable to assume a +2 - putting a 14 in that is rare, and almost certainly unwise. On the other hand you're leaving out the possibility of a shield. I ran the numbers in an earlier post in a little more detail; a the average NAD should be around 17 (that's being slightly optimistic with regards to stat distribution). Some of his PC's are slightly higher that this (which is unusual), and in the goliath's case that's the racial bonus. In any case, it's the AC's which are noticably low.

If it's a race/class that gets no bonus to a particular NAD and the PC puts nothing better than a 12 in the relevant ability scores, you could see as low as 14 for a NAD, but that's the worst case.
You could easily see a NAD of 13 if a PC has two aligned low stats. This isn't unusual, you know...

And 22 is a very high AC for a level 4 character.
It's merely average for a defender.
 

OnlineDM

Adventurer
You could easily see a NAD of 13 if a PC has two aligned low stats. This isn't unusual, you know...

The absolute lowest a 4th-level PC in this particular game could have would be 13, yes - but they really have to TRY to get a defense that low. And yes, I do think it's much more common for a PC to have at least a 12 in each pair of defense abilities (STR/CON, DEX/INT, WIS/CHA) but sure, a PC can put 10/10 or 10/8 or something like that in a pair of those stats (though I think that's a bad idea). I wouldn't say "You could EASILY see..." but yes, you CAN see it.

It's merely average for a defender.

22 AC is on the high side EVEN FOR A DEFENDER in this game. If the absolute maximum AC a 4th-level PC could have in this game is a 23, I would call 22 "good for a defender" rather than "average for a defender". And of course for a striker (as in this PC's case) it's very high.
 


eamon

Explorer
The absolute lowest a 4th-level PC in this particular game could have would be 13, yes - but they really have to TRY to get a defense that low. And yes, I do think it's much more common for a PC to have at least a 12 in each pair of defense abilities (STR/CON, DEX/INT, WIS/CHA) but sure, a PC can put 10/10 or 10/8 or something like that in a pair of those stats (though I think that's a bad idea). I wouldn't say "You could EASILY see..." but yes, you CAN see it.

If you use the auto-build feature in the character builder, you'll generally have such a defense score. If you follow the building advice in the books (i.e. mentioning primary and secondary scores), you'll quite likely arrive at such a score. In fact, if you crunch the numbers, you'll find it's probably numerically the strongest option to have a weakness, though that depends on how you define "strongest" and what it is you look for in a character. Some classes have aligned primary+secondary stats, making it prohibitively expensive to avoid such low nads. I wouldn't expect everyone to have a 13 by fourth level, but I'd expect every party to have one. Cautious players that prefer to have all bases covered might well choose a higher tertiary stat; the risk-takers will probably prefer to have a more powerful strengths at the cost of more pronounced weaknesses. Also, note that in the computation to arrive at 17 as the mean number in the OP's scenario, I (optimistically) assumed a defense-focused build, with a stat distribution for maximized defenses. All in all, it doesn't actually help very much since the extra point-buy points reduce the primary or secondary score which also affects a NAD.

22 AC is on the high side EVEN FOR A DEFENDER in this game.
The spread of defenses in 4e is rather narrow. For defenders, you'll find that most defenders (as their name implies) have good defenses. On this side of the fence that implies a minimum of AC 22 - you'd have to actively try to get lower than this. The other type of defender prefers offense to defense; such a defender forgoes a shield for greater offense. The only exception to this rule I can think of is the warden; and this is an unusual class in that it has more hitpoints than any other class in the game, at the cost of lower-than-normal defenses (and even they manage AC21 virtually automatically, and AC22 if they want to, assuming a build with a shield). If you look at the various defenders in the game, you'll find that the defensive defenders (more common) all have scale mail+heavy shield proficiency or better, and that the corresponding offensive build loses about 2AC.

If the absolute maximum AC a 4th-level PC could have in this game is a 23, I would call 22 "good for a defender" rather than "average for a defender". And of course for a striker (as in this PC's case) it's very high.
A Swordmage starting with a 17 or 18 primary stat and the Improved Swordmage Warding or Hide Armor proficiency feats has AC24 (and I'd expect pretty much every swordmage to get either feat eventually). That's without magic items; which in most games would enter play and could contribute to AC. You could search the charop boards, but I'd bet you'll find builds exceeding 24AC with level-appropriate gear. E.g. the high-AC rogue might trivially have a Mage's Parrying dagger for a very easy +1AC (coupled with feats for potentially more).

So you'd expect only a few characters in a game to have this kind of AC (not everyone plays a defender or invests feats and other choices to reach defender-like AC), but you'd expect most parties to have such characters; unless the only defender chooses to focus on offense, and no other PC chooses to focus on defense.

The OP's distribution is again entirely normal, and the value of 22AC isn't particularly high - it's bog-standard defender AC.

Edited to add: It's also worth noting that AC's just don't vary that much. So 23 is high yet 22 is normal for a defender; that's because in 4e these things hardly diverge.
 
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