Help ! How can I challenge the Druid ?...

[Chacal]

...without killing the other PCs ?

Let me expand this a bit more:

The PCs are :
A Fighter 2/ Wizard 6 (Specialized in Fire)
A Rogue 2/ Sorcerer 7
A Barbarian 2/ Druid 7

The last one has : better saves(lesser Ref than the rogue), better HP, better attack, better damage, better movement, cures, and only slightly lesser AC.

he ends most fights with more HP than the Sorcerer's max.
He doesn't look more dangerous than the Fighter ('till combat begins of course) so he isn't the prime target.


Can you find some weaknesses in this PC ? Not that I would always use them against him, but I would like to challenge him a bit more without killing the others.



Chacal

 

[Wolfspirit]

Run a campaign in a city a little bit

 

[Chacal]

Run a campaign in a city a little bit

It's pretty hard to make them stay more than a few days in a city. I've tried it before.

In some sense, it's even worse: in a city, he's nothing but a combat machine
At least in a forest I can make him do silly things to save a tree


Chacal

 

[Ziggy]

It somewhat hard to give specific advice without more details, but here are some ideas:

- Design encounters where the abilities of the arcane casters shine. If they can fly (as they should), design an encounter where staying on the ground is very dangerous (but not deadly - at least if you don't want to kill him).

- Use an evil animal lord (MoW) to lure away his animal companion(s). The animal lord will have an equally strong bond to animals of the appropriate type, and could (with the help of magic) probably manage to lure away any companion(s). Then the druid have to hunt him down, and if gets to a battle, the druid will be the natural target of the animal lord. Design the animal lord to be at least as effective as the druid in combat.

- Use hordes of low-powered opponents in combat. If the druid has the worst AC (and it gets even lower if he ranges), they will hurt him more than the others. And his high damage potential will not be as effective against swarms of creatures.

- Find big opponents that have a reason for targeting the druid, and where the others must bail him out.

.Ziggy

 

[Chacal]

It somewhat hard to give specific advice without more details, but here are some ideas:

Which details would help you ?

- Design encounters where the abilities of the arcane casters shine. If they can fly (as they should), design an encounter where staying on the ground is very dangerous (but not deadly - at least if you don't want to kill him).

Great Idea.
Both can fly thanks to alter self.
And I should hit them with ranged attacks. because he's using the "Spiked Shilelagh with Might of the oak while raging" technique and is not so brilliant at a range.

- Use an evil animal lord (MoW) to lure away his animal companion(s). The animal lord will have an equally strong bond to animals of the appropriate type, and could (with the help of magic) probably manage to lure away any companion(s). Then the druid have to hunt him down, and if gets to a battle, the druid will be the natural target of the animal lord.

another interesting idea. I've already made him fight another druid, so I would not use it soon.

Design the animal lord to be at least as effective as the druid in combat.

That's the hard part of it, because I don't want to use his techniques.

- Use hordes of low-powered opponents in combat. If the druid has the worst AC (and it gets even lower if he ranges), they will hurt him more than the others. And his high damage potential will not be as effective against swarms of creatures.

His AC is 10+3(leather+1)+2 Dext+4(barkskin)+1(some deflection
bonus) = 20 -2 rage, -1 (Might of the oak)+4 haste =21

The Fighter has : 10+mage armor(4) +something(2)+haste(4)+shield(7)=27
The Rogue has : 10+leather(2)+Dext(4)+something(2)+haste(4)+
shield(7)=29


If there are too many opponents, then the shield aren't that useful, and the druid's HP will make the difference.


Thanks ! These are the kind of answers I like on these boards


Chacal

 

[EOL]

The problem as I see it is the party composition. You've got two arcane casters, who are automatically going to be weak in melee combat. A fair bit weaker than the Druid, plus they probably overlap a fair amount in their spells, they may also have fewer magic items because they both can use the same ones. Plus while having a couple of level of barbarian basically helps out the druid, having a couple of levels of rogue and fighter really hurts the wizard and the sorcerer. I think you'd see a lot less difference between the three characters if there was an 8th level wizard, 9th level sorcerer, instead of the multi-class.

None of this helps very much I realize because it's probably too late to change any of the things I've mentioned.

 

[Chacal]

The problem as I see it is the party composition.

Yep, the Barb/Cleric and the Fighter rogue
helped a lot. Unfortunately One is dead (the pC) and the other has moved
(the player).
I've put a dwarf NPC Fighter 4 Cleric3 to help them for a few sessions, but they can't rely too much on NPC so I've hit him very hard in a fight, ripped him off one eye and a part of his face (that scared the PCs ) and he went back to its city.

You've got two arcane casters, who are automatically going to be weak in melee combat.

Actually, the Fighter/wizard has a 18 str and a greataxe (with magic weapon), so he's not that weak. (only +5 BAB though)

A fair bit weaker than the Druid, plus they probably overlap a fair amount in their spells, they may also have fewer magic items because they both can use the same ones. Plus while having a couple of level of barbarian basically helps out the druid, having a couple of levels of rogue and fighter really hurts the wizard and the sorcerer.

Good analysis.

I think you'd see a lot less difference between the three characters if there was an 8th level wizard, 9th level sorcerer, instead of the multi-class.

This part I'm not sure of.
The "better in HP, Saves, BAB," part wouldn't change much. And I'm not sure which weakness of the druid I could use that wouldn't be more dangerous for the others.

None of this helps very much I realize because it's probably too late to change any of the things I've mentioned.

well,if the sorcerer manages to get another level, he'll probably take Improved Invisibility so he'll be less vulnerable in some situations.



Chacal

 

[JLXC]

How to challenge a Druid, who is also a good melee Fighter?

Let's face it that the PC has crap for Reflex saves, unless he has 18 in Dex too Also, for ranged and flying combat this character would be sub par at best.



Peons with Tanglefoot Bags and Alchemists Fire?

Low Ref saves hurt a lot vs. this simple tactic.

------------------------------

Flying Beasties who have Flyby Attack?

Druids have horrible ranged attack and they can shapechange into weak only flying forms.

-----------------------------

Enemy spellcasters with Ref save spells hurt a LOT.

Anything that would make the PC Rage, then when the rage is worn off, the "Real" attack begins with the PC hampered.

Stuff like this....

 

[EOL]

This part I'm not sure of.
The "better in HP, Saves, BAB," part wouldn't change much. And I'm not sure which weakness of the druid I could use that wouldn't be more dangerous for the others.

The big difference would be the number and levels of spells they would have. The sorcerer would have a couple of fourth Including the Improved Invisibility you mentioned below and he would have already had it for nearly two levels. And instead of taking Imp. Invisibility next level he'd be taking some 5th level spell next level like cone of cold or similar, Same with the Wizard.

 

[Victim]

Use invisible stuff. Druids don't have a good way to see invis for a while. Wizards and sorcerers get a few a lower levels. See invis is also self only, so characters without it will be in trouble.

Our group just had a fight in which EVERY combatant was Improved Invisible. Both the villains could see invis, and 2 out seven party members. If my character didn't have a neat ring that lets me see invisible, our party would have been pretty helpless as the wizard with the spell died in the first round.