HELP! M&M vs. HERO vs. MSH

[Dragonblade]

After reading all the rave reviews of Mutants and Masterminds I have decided to ask a question.

I love HERO and I love the ability to create any superpower that you can think of. I hate the buckets of dice and the slow combat and character generation.

I also loved the TSR Marvel Super Heroes game using the SAGA card system. I really liked the way you could have a core power and add stunts to it. Much easier than having to build every power from scratch. But I prefer dice to cards and the power system while cool could be a bit oversimplistic. In a twisted way I liked the sophisticated power construction and tweakability in HERO.

From what I hear, Mutants and Masterminds has a cool power creation system which is very simple and easy to use to create characters yet has some of the sophistication of HERO. But it also plays very quickly, which HERO doesn't, and uses dice. I like dice and never really got into the cards. But I don't like HERO's buckets of dice.

So is this the dream supers game I've always wanted? Can someone who has played HERO, M&M, and/or the SAGA Marvel super heroes game give me a detailed comparison of the pros and cons for each system and how it beats or loses out to the others in different areas?

 

[Drakmar]

well.. I haven't played all three.. but I do have the M&M rules... so I can give you some of the pros as I see them.. and a wee bump fer yer thread.

Ok.. Pros.. Comprehensive Power List... and rules for taking ANY power you can think of.. and making the rules work with it. To give you an idea.. you could easily make any of the X-Men from the movie.. or make any of the Mystery Men... or the hero from Unbreakable. easily. and quickly.

Pro... easiest character creation system I have seen in ages. and I have seen some difficult ones.. one of my fav games is Rolemaster.

Pro.. usuability.. I believe that it is possible to use the rules to create a game in ANY genre... you want a fantasy RPG.. you can play it. you want it High Magic.. bingo.. low magic?...another bingo.

Cons.

Um... One of the Hero's in the rule book has is like "Superman" and has a BROWN outfit.. a BROWN outfit... EW!!!..

that is about it.

 

[Hollywood]

Pretty much agree with what Drakmar said. I have the original MSH somewhere, and have played HERO a couple of times. But M&M, even though I'm not a fan of the D20 rules, does a great job where it feels as if I gets everything right without too many rules.

Only cons are mostly easily corrected. I do admit to having a few house rules, like putting back in attacks of opportunity, etc... and adding a few rules from the DMG in such as Firing into Melee, etc. Overall though, superb game, superb layout thats all in color with good illustrations [except for brown-suited Superman].

I do hope that M&M will come out with a web supplement that will at least take the weapons listed in the D20 SRD [and maybe even the D20 modern] and give M&M damage ratings to them.

 

[teitan]

I really like MnM and it is basically taking the best of both worlds with the character creation system. You have the flexibility of Hero and the simplicity of Marvel (any version).

The pros of the system is that it is so quick and simple to play, like Saga and the OMSH. Very streamlined D20, to the point it isn't really your momma's D20 anymore, except at it's very root.

Cons, not really a con as far as I am concerned, is the way that exceptionally skilled characters like Bat-man or Captain America are handled with super-attributes. On the GR forum people have been talking about house ruling that one power point equals five skill points, but I think that could seriously muck up the system in the long run, especially if you are using pre-gens, as some of them have seen. I think super-attributes with the right flaws etc works just fine to emulate these characters and helps them to be on par with the more powerful characters.

Protonik is cool, don't be dissin my boy. I love that costume.

Jason (Protonik of the mnmtalk list)

 

[SmokestackJones]

Hey there,

Gotta add my 2 bits, too. Haven't played the MSH SAGA game but, as a vetran Champions player, I'm mighty impressed with M&M. Made the conversion of my characters Dr. Moostyc and Dire Wolf from HERO a piece of cake. The learning curve, though, is a bit tricky. But once you get it, man, is it easy!

You're right about the skill points: a lot of the GR posters are using 1 Power Point = 3 Skill points. Gives the skill-heavy characters a boost while not unbalancing the game.

As for ol' Protonik, I just can't quite warm up to him. I think he needs a costume change-look at Sentinel over at SAS. THERE's a good looking super.

BTW, as much as I like some of the concepts for the villians, they still pale a bit, personality-wise, from other games. I mean, the Atomic Brain is great, but he can't, IMO, quite pull off the presence like, say, Dr. Destroyer or Mechanon. Even Kruenzritter or Jade Naga had more presence.

Okay, sorry for the semi-rant.

Anyway, M&M-buy it and try it. You won't be sorry.

-Smokestack Jones
Maker of the Sampo

 

[Samnite]

I'm in love with M&M. It can handle anything you can throw at it with ease and can make any hero I could think of.

My only issue with the book is that the templates aren't quite right. Other than that, no flaws as far as I'm concerned. They've made purchasing skill ranks fairly uncommon, but I understand why they did that (since Superheroes are really good at one thing, they're just super smart).

Buy it! Now!

 

[Sulimo]

Hmmm...I'm still sitting on my hands in anticipation of my copy of M&M.

My alltime fave Supers game has been the pre-SAGA Marvel though that TSR did many moons ago...

 

[Dragonblade]

Well, you guys sold me. I went out and bought a copy and I must say I'm impressed with this game.

I like everything about it but may add some house rules to tweak the damage save. Cool idea but not quite my style...

I also may tweak the skill points a bit too. But everything else is great.