Help me brainstorm my "Smart Rogue"

[Rel]

Zhure, I think you meant Decipher Script instead of Disable Device unless I'm missing something. But your point is well taken. If my fellow party members wind up being Cleric/Wiz and Fighter/Wiz, I should be able to get my grubby little hands on a scroll or three. I plan to keep UMD maxed out and get as many synergies as possible.

Which brings up another point. One of the angles I'm going to try and work with this character is to get a LOT of the skill synergies going. That means that I'll need a lot of skill points (and not just at first level since you need at least 5 ranks to get the synergies). With that in mind, I'm hoping to keep the multiclassing to a minimum.

I appreciate your efforts, Darklone, and that sort of "outside the box" thinking is very helpful for letting me see all the possibilities. But I'm going to do the best I can to stay away from taking the fighter levels.

Your posts have however helped me to focus my decision making process into three basic choices:

1) Take the Scholar or Skill Prodigy feat to increase my knowledge base even further (I've recieved official word that these are ok by the GM). Right now I'm leaning a bit more toward Skill Prodigy. Scholar gives me ALL Knowledge skills as class skills but as it stands I can buy them cross class in a lot of different areas and get my sizable Int bonus added on. With Skill Prodigy I could take Spellcraft and Alchemy as class skills along with another one (possibly a Knowledge?) with an eye toward becoming a poison expert later on.

The thing I'm struggling with on this one is that I could be in danger of becoming a one-trick-pony who is great at skills but is mediocre in combat. On the other hand, maybe that is the very definition of a single classed Rogue.

2) Focus on ranged attacking. This has the benefit of playing to my strengths (high Dex and throwing bonus for being a Halfling). I could take Point Blank Shot right away and add Rapid Shot or Precise Shot at 3rd. The downside of this scenario is that it doesn't make the most of one of the primary combat features of the Rogue - Sneak Attack. I hope to Sneak Attack as often as possible and ranged attacks offer few opportunities for this.

The other problem is that of us lacking a "front line" to fire from behind. One character will be either a Cleric/Monk or a Fighter/Wiz, so I can count on him being in melee. The other character's combat role largely depends on whether he has lots of levels of Cleric or Wizard. I won't know this for sure until he finalizes his character.

3) Focus on melee attacking. There are few feats that help me here at first level. I could just take Expertise with the understanding that I'll have to "grow into it" as I gain BAB. In later levels I can take Weapon Finesse and Weapon Focus (probably with Dagger or Short Sword) and I'll be a fairly decent melee fighter. With lots of ranks in Tumble and synergies with Jump, I don't need to worry too much about Attacks of Opportunity and I can hopefully flank and Sneak Attack a lot. Then again, I'm more likely to get killed this way and (especially in the short term) this plays more to my weaknesses (lack of Str and low BAB).

What say you?

 

[Zhure]

Zhure, I think you meant Decipher Script instead of Disable Device unless I'm missing something. But your point is well taken.

Thanks. I'm full of skull cramps today. I meant Decipher Script, yeah.

Greg

 

[Gaiden]

Cool thread.

A couple of points:

First about the other two party members:

If one is going to be a cleric/wizard - I would highly suggest one of the appropriate PrC's as not getting full spell progression will shaft the player. I would recommend going True Necromancer or Geomancer to take advantage of the abilities from both classes. I am not as versed in multiclassing the wizard with cleric and so have not gone through the different possibilities.

I do have experience with fighter mages. I have actually gone through the books and attempted to make unique fighter mage types and have come up with several different character archetypes. The first is a Paladin Sorcerer with still spell. The character can be both good at combat and have significant casting ability. Pal 1,Fig 1, Sor 4, MotAO6, S.E. 8 with still spell and then arrange as desired. The next type that is possible with this combination is a Fig 2, Wiz4, MotAO2, Bladesinger2, Candle Caster 10. If he spends time to actually make the candles he will be quite the badass being able light the candles while armored with no spell failure chance (moreover, he will have still spell, to still other spells as it is a pre-req for the B.S.) The final character is similar to what I just mentioned but switching out B.S. for Duelist with no necessity to take candle caster or still spell as this character won't wear armor. There are of course the two PrC's: bladesinger and spellsword, but I think they achieve the fighter mage end less effectively than what I have outlined above. Really it depends on what you are going for - a fighter with magic, or a caster with melee.

For your halfling Rogue, I would suggest a few things:

First point relates to skill point designation. While 12 (or 11 if you have a 16 Int) s.p./level seems like a lot, it really is not IF you are planning on taking rogue skills, as well as knowledge skills as well as other non-rogue skills. The education feat is nice, but if you already are trying to pull weight in the rogue skill selection, you are not going to have many ranks to dish out for extra skills. I would consider the feat a relative waste. Your character's feats are going to be the most valuable form of combat prowess, especially if you are not going to do anything with magic. Moreover, you could take jack of all trades as you suggested earlier and be able to roll any knowledge check with a similar efficacy that you would had you gotten the feat and put a few ranks in whatever specific knowledge you were interested in. In fact, jack of all trades would seem to make more sense because even if you took education, you still would not be able to put ranks in every single knowledge out there, even with 11 skill points per level.

So when it came down to it I would rate jack of all trades higher than education. However, you might also consider taking a level of cleric and taking the knowledge domain. That will give you all knowledge skills as class skills (effectively giving you the feat for free) and you could take another domain which gave a bonus to certain skills - I know there are some in FR that do that and I think there may be 1 or 2 in the PHB. Alternatively you could take a domain that gave you a feat - war for example to get WF in the deity's favored weapon - I am sure you could find a god that had dagger as its favored weapon and also had knowledge - if FR is available, you should be able to find one. This of course would require the appropriate roleplaying, so I am not sure if you would want your character to take such a bent.

I would rate Jack of all trades as equivalent to multiclassing with 1 level of cleric. You could even do both. The next feat to add in the mix is skill prodigy. I would highly recommend this feat to you. If I am understanding it correctly (I don't own the respective book) and you get three skills as class skill, using it for spellcraft and two other skills would be right up your alley for getting synergy bonuses to UMD. As you suggested, alchemy seems another obvious choice. Moreover, the fact that you are only gaining a few skills makes it much more likely that you will actually have enough skill points to devote to keeping them up with the rest of your skills.

BTW - there is an article in the most recent dragon that has a list of all synergy bonuses - you might find that useful.

If it were up to me, I would limit my feat selection to one thing related to skills. I would choose jack of all trades or skill prodigy. Multiclassing with cleric I think would have some interesting roleplaying potential but has its own limitations (you will lose 6 skill points, which could possibly compensated by another domain). It also dictates your character's image (at least partially). The few healing spells would be nice (I know you said you did not want spellcasting, though).

For combat prowess, which is going to be pretty important, especially early on, I would suggest capitalizing on your strengths. You have an effective +3 to ranged attacks with throwing weapons at 1st level (+1 from the dex increase, +1 small, +1 halfling). Don't let that go to waste. PBS, RS, PS, WF - Dagger are obvous choices. You made the point about ranged attacks not being as good with sneak attack which is well made. However, if you can sneak attack opponents early on, you will pretty much be able to take down most things in a round with RS.

If it were me I would think several feats were must have for missile fire with thrown weapons (in the following order):

PBS
WF
QD
RS

I would actually stay away from precise shot as more than likely by the time you are going to be able to take advantage of the feat, you will no longer be able to use sneak attack, in which case you are going to want to move into flanking position.

I would highly, highly recommend multiclassing 1 level of ranger into your character - not necessarily right away but sometime.

RS stacks with TWF, and you could get quite a bunch of attacks off in one round (which is key when dealing with SA dmg).

You most likely won't be in anything heavier than light armor anyway, and dual wielding daggers has the advantage of being able to be used in melee or missile fire. If you do take a level of ranger I would strongly recommend selecting wilderness lore as your third skill from skill prodigy so that you can continue to increase it for Tracking.

Improved initiative is also extremely important for a rogue. Here is a list of every feat you might want to take:

Skill Prodigy
II
PBS
WF - dagger
WFin - dagger
QD
RS
Amb (free if take 1 level of ranger)
TWF (free if take 1 level of ranger)
QttE
FotW
CR-->ET

Tumble will be extremely important so that you can get in the best position to throw weapons, get into flanking position, escape creatures with reach, etc., no matter what feats you decide to take. Let me also second the idea of maxing out escape artist - grappling will kill you faster than jumping in a barrel of acid.

With Ran1/Fig2/RogX

By sixth level you could have:

Skill Prodigy
PBS
WF - dagger
WFin - dagger
RS
Amb (free if take 1 level of ranger)
TWF (free if take 1 level of ranger)
Track

This would be pretty good in that you could have a dagger in each hand so as not to have to take time to draw the second to throw it. You only have a +5 BAB so no second iterive attack anyway. You will be really, really good with those daggers too. With a dex20 you will have a +12 on melee and +13 on ranged attacks (assuming at least masterwork quality daggers. Moreover, you will have to get closer to fight in melee after throwing daggers which means that you can draw your other daggers - that you will dual wield - when you move into melee. You will be dealing 1d4+SA (I am assuming a str=10) with every hit if you win initiative and flank which will be quite substantial. Get your hands on magical daggers with energy enhancements as quick as is absolutely possible.

Darklone, I am pretty sure that while the TWF does not help with ranged attacks it does not give heftier penalties as it is completely unrelated. If you take a full attack action and you dual weild with your offhand weapon light with both feats you have a -2 penalty. If you rapid shot you have another -2 penalty. Those stack to -4, but it does not mean that the twf rules change giving you a -4 to each attack.

I would recommend going against taking expertise, unless the rest of your party is absolutely doing anything melee related. It would probably be better to just tumble away. If you do decide to go with expertise wait until you are at least 12th level so that the AC bonus is worthwhile (while still having a prayer to hit).

Lastly, look to WotN. They have a feat in their that increases dagger attacks. Does d6 dmg instead of d4 and increases threat range by 1. Almost as good as weapon specialization for a rogue. I am not sure if it has a ninja level prereq or if it is just SA prereq, though.

 

[RigaMortus]

You might want to look into the Loremaster PrC and see what skills and such you need to qualify for that...

 

[Rel]

Thanks for the in-depth analysis, Gaiden.

After much (probably unnecessary) agonizing over this, I think I've come to a decision. I'm going to take Point Blank Shot as my first level feat. At 3rd, I'll probably take Rapid Shot or Weapon Finesse depending on whether my role in the party shapes up as more of a missile or melee guy.

I've decided that I'll skip taking the skill oriented feats and just buy a few ranks cross classed here and there. But I am going to plan on sticking with straight Rogue instead of multiclassing. If I'm going to keep my skills at the forefront then I'll need every skill point I can get my hands on.

The reason for stubbornly refusing to multiclass (despite some of the obvious advantages you guys have pointed out) is for roleplaying reasons. The background I've come up with for this guy has many instances where he suffered from a lack of crucial knowledge (such as his father dying because he lacked the Heal skill). This has caused him to have an almost obsessive desire to acquire new knowledge, which makes for a good adventure hook as well as underpinning my wealth of skills.

Anyhow, I plan to have him armed with a pair of daggers and a brace of throwing darts for when he is walking around the city. He'll add a light crossbow and maybe a club when he goes "adventuring". Later I'll look to add a masterwork crossbow and some magic daggers whenever I can afford them. And I'll kill whoever I have to in order to lay my hands on a Ring of Jumping. That would be great fun.

The good news in all of this is that neither of the other two characters is going to be a combat powerhouse either. So the GM should have a relatively easy time devising challenges for the group without them being pushovers for some and deadly for the others.

Again, thanks for all the insightful input from everybody. If you have any other last minute ideas I'm still listening.

 

[bret]

I would suggest you only keep about 4 skills maxed out, with maybe another 4 at 2/3 max. That will allow you to have a wider selection of skills.

Since you are going the skill monkey route, if you start looking at PrC you might want to look at the Gate Crasher from Manual of the Planes.

Full skill points (8), adds a few skills such as Alchemy, and has some fun abilities related to plane hopping. Not a powerhouse by any measure, but worth looking at.

 

[Darklone]

Cool thread.

Yeah!

Darklone, I am pretty sure that while the TWF does not help with ranged attacks it does not give heftier penalties as it is completely unrelated. If you take a full attack action and you dual weild with your offhand weapon light with both feats you have a -2 penalty. If you rapid shot you have another -2 penalty. Those stack to -4, but it does not mean that the twf rules change giving you a -4 to each attack.

Sorry, Gaiden, no. With two light weapons and no benefit for Two Weapon Fighting, your penalty for two attacks is -4/-4 for Ambidexterity and at least one light weapon. This stacks with Rapid Shot to three attacks at -6/-6/-6.

Rel: Singleclass halfling rogue rocks. Adding some other levels later such as the proposed wizard or cleric depends on roleplaying reasoning... (says the munchkin in me). Perhaps you guys meet a nice NPC barbarian with greataxe who joins you for some time? (hint hint hint!)

 

[Lord Zardoz]

Yet more Skills Advice...

I am not so sure that I would dump so many points into knowledge skills. Generally, when people speak of knowledge being power, they are refering to knowing other peoples secrets.

To that end, you should max out Gather Information and Diplomacy. I would also recomend Bluff, Forgery, and Sense Motive. On top of that, I also greatly reccomend getting your Use Magic Device skill up as high as you can crank it.

END COMMUNICATION