Help me build a tank

[monboesen]

I find this a good thing. It means the book is doing it's job about being a fresh new take on warriors.

Or that the classes from the book blow other martial classes out of the water.

 

[Mort]

Or that the classes from the book blow other martial classes out of the water.

Could be - but so far IME, it just seems the classes are flavorful and flashy, a combination people seem to like.
People tend to look at the abilities in a vacuum and go "My god, that's huge" but when taken in context (most abilities take a standard action[no full attack], some have significant AC penalties, the save ones can be used only once per round and prevent any other counters) they are not nearly as "huge" as they look.

 

[Felon]

I find this a good thing. It means the book is doing it's job about being a fresh new take on warriors.

"A fresh new take", eh?

The most interesting thing about the BoBS is how often its advocates resort to a degree of equivocation in their praise of it, even if they're not fully cognizant of it.

I mean, how does "freshness" factor into this pattern? If discussion of how to create an "ultimate ___" warrior inevitably winds up with a BoBS build as popular choice for top contender, there are certainly other more accurate adjectives that spring to mind than "fresh".

People tend to look at the abilities in a vacuum and go "My god, that's huge" but when taken in context (most abilities take a standard action[no full attack], some have significant AC penalties, the save ones can be used only once per round and prevent any other counters) they are not nearly as "huge" as they look.

So far as I can tell, the martial disciplines provide all kinds of insane ways to inflict gross damage with a single attack. BoBS advocates tend to portray that as a wash because you don't get a full round of attacks, but they don't take it into context how much better is to throw a pile of damage in one attack than it is to make a full round of attacks. So, we're back to "my god, that's huge" territory.

Or that the classes from the book blow other martial classes out of the water.

Bingo.

 

[Gumby]

Good thing you can always make up a new thread to discuss this in then, instead of derailing one that was going pretty well without you.

 

[Krafen]

Crusader or Warblade do sound nice. Does anyone have any experience with these classes? Crusader in particular seems like a lot of book keeping to figure out which maneuver you can use. Are they good classes to multiclass? I was thinking maybe taking a few levels of crusader and then going for another class or PrC. Something like 3clr/3crus/-> pious templar. Do you think there's more tanky goodness by staying crusader all the way up?

As far as the bookkeeping goes, I suggest using the "drawing cards from a deck" method suggested in the book. You can actually download maneuver cards from WotC's website.

 

[Nazhkandrias]

Have you considered Dwarven Defender from the DMG? You get DR 6/- at 10th level, and Defensive Stance is THE defensive ability. Granted, he is more of a point defender functioning best when the only option is an Overrun (not an option for a Dwarf, let alone a Dwarven Defender), at least until Mobile Defense. But Enlarge Person can fix that fairly quickly.

As for Fast Healing... can't help you too much on that one, but healing yourself is nice too. Consider a Dwarven Paladin/Dwarven Defender. Ability to Lay On Hands to heal yourself combined with the healing of the Cleric really increases your survival rate, trust me. Be sure to take a variant class to get rid of that pesky Special Mount, whatever works for you. If you need some more feats, go for a few levels in Fighter.

A Dwarven Paladin / Fighter / Dwarven Defender will give you the ability to heal yourself, nothing but d10 and d12 hit dice, nothing but the best BAB, plenty of feats, damage reduction, Defensive Stance, both Uncanny Dodges, proficiency with just about everything (use a tower shield), stability, good damage, high Con, a couple of Auras... the list goes on and on. In addition, there are minimal multiclassing penalties.

The only disadvantage is reliance on multiple ability scores. Naturally, you'll need great Str and Con (the Dwarf helps with this), at least 13 Dex (to qualify for Dwarven Defender), at least 12 Cha (preferably more, to help with Lay On Hands), and 13 Int would help, if you want Combat Expertise for the extra AC. Feel free to dump Wis, it isn't as important if you use a Non-Spellcasting Paladin (which I would recommend in this scenario).

 

[Felon]

Good thing you can always make up a new thread to discuss this in then, instead of derailing one that was going pretty well without you.

Point taken.

 

[SteveC]

On the Crusader issue: they are an interesting class to play (I'm playing one now) and I think they'll do an excellent job of keeping you standing for a long time. I'd still say that a straight cleric or druid makes a better damage absorber/tank, but the Crusader is both novel and fun to play. It's also a bit of work to fit your head around how to play it, so it may take some time to figure out.

The single biggest drawback that I've seen to the class is that most of their nifty abilities (at least at low level...my character only has first and second level maneuvers, although I've planned things to level 10) require you to actually hit your target. This is not as foolproof as you might think, especially early on. I also made a couple of bad choices as far as maneuvers go, which thankfully I'll be able to swap out later on.

Later on, a lot of your good abilities are based on allowing other characters in your group to do things, so I'd suggest working with your cleric and rogue/mage to suggest they get some summoning spells. I doubt they're going to be overly excited about charging into battle, even if they receive some nifty bonuses, so you should either stay away from the White Raven abilities (which are some of the ones that people talk about being the most "broken") or get them go get with the program and summon you some help!

--Steve

 

[sukael]

My $0.02: don't forget about touch AC. I'd consider going for that feat in PHB2 that lets you add your shield bonus to touch AC (I can't remember the name), and, if you'd be high enough level to get them, Heavy Armor Optimization and Deflective Armor from Races of Stone. (Don't forget you'd need to be psionic to grab the latter, though.)