D&D General Help Me Build the D&D Game I Want to Run

[Lanefan]

We played published modules (as is) as well as a lot of homebrew stuff. We followed the treasure tables for monsters for loot, neither adding nor subtracting from the results. When I DMed AD&D (which was most of the time), it was always "let the dice fall as the may". If I rolled up a vorpal sword for a Giant Beaver a party of 3rd-level characters defeated, they got a vorpal sword. Sometimes that was a huge boon in xp (such an item was worth 10,000 XP after all!), as even divided by the 5 characters would be enough alone to be half the XP they need to level!

Same here - except I've never used xp-for-treasure.

Either way, as I have said repeatedly, awarded XP for treasure was typically maybe half (at best) of the total XP accumulated. Some times it was more, most times it was less. Now, it is subjective to the DM. If they want faster leveling, the award treasure at a higher ratio, using 1-1 as a baseline for an average encounter instead of something hard. I typically awarded 1 XP per 5 gp recovered for the average (think moderate in 5E) encounter.

As far as the per session comment, it has nothing to do with adventures. I am simply talking about the rate in playing time at which characters in 5E level compared to AD&D. Of course it varies from group to group. In 5E the suggested rate is a level per 2-3 sessions (4-hour), in AD&D we would be lucky to level in twice that time. In our CoS game we made level 6 in only 8 sessions (granted, we accomplished a lot), but that is pretty fast and was simply by the XP awarded for defeating what we encountered.

In the long run, if you disagree with my experiences and they differed from yours that is fine and just say so, but what someone else did as their analysis is immaterial to me and my experiences.

All three differ.

Your ratio differs from the analysis; yours is actually closer to what I'd expect. Mine differs from both in never having used xp-for-treasure. But for me the analysis is still relevant as were I to ever go to a xp-for-treasure system its in-depthness gives me a vague baseline as to what to expect.

As for comparing campaigns etc. within an edition or across editions, I've always found that using a by-adventure comparison works best as it filters out and ignores the variables of real time, session length/frequency, and so forth and thus gives a valid apples-to-apples measure.

And it's edition-agnostic: most D&D campaigns across all editions have been made up of reasonably discrete (and thus countable) adventures.

 

[Mepher]

@Mepher:

Yeah in 5E a group of 3rd level characters can defeat a medusa (we did it in "Into the Borderlands").

Anyway:

• Limit ability scores to 18 instead of 20
• Change ability score modifiers to B/X (6-8 -1, 9-12 +0, 13-15 +1, 16-17 +2, 18 +3)
• Start proficiency bonus at +1 for levels 1-2, then return to normal (+2 for 4 level,s +2 for 4 levels, etc.).
• Half the benefits of features (Archery Style is +1 to hit, not +2) to a minimum of +1
• Change features to once per turn, not per attack (like smite)
• Add HP cost to use special features (such as action Surge)
• Half awarded XP
• Include training to level (removes excess gp, slows pace)
• Stop HD at level 9, then static increase
• etc.

Actually, the easiest way IMO would be to "make an AD&D character but play by 5E rules."

And that may very well be my next step. I have put it off for a couple years now because my group has been split. Some love 5E and some would rather be playing 2E. As a DM I am firmly in the 2E camp. Maybe the middle ground is starting with the system I prefer and then adding the parts of 5E that I like and moving it more towards something we all like. Problem is, I have some lazy players. They don't want to participate in this discussion, only complain when there is something they don't like.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Oy! Yeah, I know, sometimes getting players to theorycraft house-rules is like pulling teeth!

I am pretty much in the same boat, so let me as you this:

What are the five things you love most about 5E?

And...

What are the five things you love most about AD&D (2E since that was what you mentioned)?

Give it some serious thought if you have to before you reply.

 

[Mepher]

Well that is going to be tough. I am going to take a little bit to think about this but I can tell you one thing, there is very little that I love about 5E. There is a lot that I like but much of it is conditional also. I will say off the top of my head though there is one thing I absolutely LOVE about 5E and that is the abundance of support. DMSguild with constant materials coming out (good and bad) as well as Dndbeyond. I have a master account with the core books, the additional player supplements, and Dragons of Icespire Peak adventure. The way everything works is utterly amazing. Making characters takes minutes these days, looking up spells or abilities on the fly is awesome. I keep my iPad next to me with source books ready to go and my laptop on the other side with everyone's character in a new tab. It's the perfect tool (expensive though). If only it wasn't for 5E. If they down the road added support for older editions I would be in heaven but I don't see that ever happening.

So the problem though is the one thing I love about it really has nothing to do with the system and more with the amazing job a 3rd party company has done supporting it.

 

[Reynard]

5E is really fun when that's what you want. Last week the illithid getting a crit on the dwarf with his brain extraction was AMAZING. But I'm finding it is difficult to get it not be like that when I want grittier, slower, more down to Earth fantasy.

 

[DND_Reborn]

So the problem though is the one thing I love about it really has nothing to do with the system and more with the amazing job a 3rd party company has done supporting it.

Ok, yeah, that is a problem then...

I'll give you my answers:

Five things I love about 5E:

1. Advantage/Disadvantage. We allow it to stack, so if you have two sources of advantage, roll 3 dice! What I don't love so much is how easy it is to come by--but that is easy to fix.
2. Feats. (Ok, so not exclusively 5E...) I like variety and they are a way to add it. Some are a bit unbalanced and lead to strange synergies, and I wish they were more "flavor"-oriented (like Keen Mind), but I would miss them.
3. Exhaustion. Like advantage/disadvantage, a great concept and I wish it was used more.
4. Hit Dice. Again, not exclusive to 5E but it gives them some use. I would love to see more uses and think tying HD spending into features (like spend 2 HD for Action Surge) would be a better way of implementing some features.
5. Backgrounds. I like that your background isn't tied to your class But, again I see so much more potential for how they could be used in the game. For example, the Solider background should include Light Armor Proficiency and Simple Weapons. If you have a Wizard-Soldier, it would make sense you would be better trained in combat than a Wizard-Sage.

Five things I love about AD&D:

1. Variable XP Advancement Tables by Class. I hate the unified XP table and how much XP is awarded for monsters in 5E by comparison.
2. Variable THAC0 advancement (and saves). I am not a fan of the overly-simple unified grand proficiency bonus.
3. Subclasses that are actual classes. Illusionist and Assassin, etc. It makes them feel very distinct from the main class.
4. Ability Score Benefits Are Harder To Get. Most ability scores don't begin to grant a bonus until 15, not freakin' 12!
5. LOWER HP/ HIGH AC! Boy, I cannot tell you how much I hate BA and HP bloat. I don't mind the concept of Bounded Accuracy, but they went too far with it IMO. Also, unless you play more optimized characters, higher HP takes a long time to wear down and combat takes too long. I know many people have felt the opposite, but that is my experience.

So, give it some more thought and let me know at least what aspects of 5E you would want to see in 2E, even if you don't "love" them.

 

[DND_Reborn]

5E is really fun when that's what you want. Last week the illithid getting a crit on the dwarf with his brain extraction was AMAZING. But I'm finding it is difficult to get it not be like that when I want grittier, slower, more down to Earth fantasy.

Yeah, there are definitely awesome moments in 5E, but that happens in other editions as well, doesn't it?

I'll pose the same questions to you: What do you love most about 5E? and; what do you love most about other editions (that you feel is missing from 5E)?

 

[DND_Reborn]

@Reynard , @Mepher:

One last suggestion I am going to make for now about making 5E feel more like AD&D, it is a BIG one, not likely desired by most 5E players:

Remove Subclasses.

There, I said it. Can't take it back.

If you look at the core classes, which subclass features added, and compare their abilities to AD&D classes, you will see you are much closer. Subclasses blur lines: Fighter and Rogues with magic, Barbarians summoning spirits, etc. and that makes classes feel less unique IMO.

Now, I have suggested this before (many moons ago when I was first learning 5E), and people rebelled because they want something that makes their character "special" and different. My answer to them and I still hold true to it: ROLE-PLAY.

Why do you need a mechanical difference or a strange feature to make your character out to what you want it to be? For myself, anyway, it was never a problem to just play my character differently--and that made them different.

To me, subclasses and the features they grant are basically like HP bloat--simply unnecessary.

Now, to balance things a bit. Offer proficiencies maybe instead. Want to be an Assassin, then at 3rd level take proficiency in the poisoner's kit. Want your Ranger to have a beast companion? Take Animal Handling and role-play it with your DM! Make an adventure out of capturing and/or befriending the animal, and training it.

However you do it, I am sure there is a better, less "power"-influencing way.

 

[Mepher]

Ok lets give this a shot.

Five things I like about 5E:

1. Perception. I like having a stat that is a catch all for what your character might notice or hear. I like the idea of making it an average of 2 skills (wis/int) so it eliminates the dump stat. Not sure how I will incorporate that into my AD&D game but it will make an appearance in some form.
2. Ability checks in general. I like how some checks are handled and in some cases I like opposing checks. What i'm not sure about is checks like Stealth vs Perception. AD&D handled it with Thief skills with reducing % chance based on the level of the target. With the simple ability system 5E has it works, not sure if and how that will translate though.
3. Backgrounds. I also like backgrounds although the are really nothing more than 2E kits.
4. Exhaustion also is a nice concept but only if utilized. I like the idea of varying degrees of exhaustion and the players needing to rest to recover. My players learned fast what being disadvantaged on all rolls meant when they played Blue Alley.
5. Variety of Monsters and their abilities. This is one of my biggest likes but of course it's somewhat negated by all the downsides such as bounded accuracy and hit points. I love the little things added to monsters such as pack tactics, aggressive, nimble escape, and legendary/lair actions. I think they add a lot of flair to ordinary creatures. I always loved to throw in surprises with my monsters in AD&D and was happy to see those types of things in 5E. Of course like anything they lose their surprise fast when they are hardcoded into the design unless you change them up.

Five things I love about 2E:

1. Like you, I am glad for Thac0 and no bounded accuracy. My group never had a problem with Thac0 so I am fine using it. I like that combat is slower. I personally thing in real time combat goes by faster in AD&D because character sheets aren't a list of abilities and conditions. While some may see that as a bad thing I like that each player knows their roll in the party without a website to theorycraft their "build".
2. Ability scores. Again like you I really love the 3-18 ability scores and I love the lack of ability score increases with level. Ioun Stones, Gauntlets, Girdles, etc....there where always great magic items to increase your scores. Just getting that Girdle of Giant Strength and getting that 18/00 Strength was such a huge gain.
3. Magic Items. This was a huge letdown for me with 5E. Because of BA they had to reduce the numbers on magic items. Getting a +4 or +5 of anything should be extremely rare imo but it's one of those things that character remembers forever about that character. Still unsure about Attuning because in our 5E games we really only played published adventures and we never got enough GOOD magic to really miss out. I love that magic can be character defining in AD&D because what can be given can also be taken away. If an item or group of items turn out to unbalance your game there are ways to fix it. When someone's "build" unbalances your game it's much harder to deal with.
4. XP Progression. Not only do I not like the unified XP tables but I really don't like how fast the progression is. I think the sweet spot of most D&D games (1E/2E and even 5E) is that level 4-8 range. Level 4-8 in 5E could be a couple months if you play weekly. Our 2E games we had characters hitting level 6 after a year of playing weekly. It's not for everyone i'm sure but I can tell you that everyone at my table knew their characters inside and out, casters weren't flipping pages to read spell descriptions, and the players were more focused on the story and their actions rather than chasing the next shiny when they level again.
5. BBEGs and encounter balance...or lack thereof. Without BA, having higher ac and lower hp means the BBEG is back. It's possible to have a part fight a single creature without having to throw endless minions at them.
   

There are a lot of other things I could add to the list but it would just sound like a love letter. It really comes down to the tone of the game. 5E feels distinctly different to me. I know DMs can run it how they want but some of the mechanics just set the tone.

 

[Lanefan]

Five things I like about 5E:

Perception. I like having a stat that is a catch all for what your character might notice or hear. I like the idea of making it an average of 2 skills (wis/int) so it eliminates the dump stat. Not sure how I will incorporate that into my AD&D game but it will make an appearance in some form.

Depending on what difficulty level you want to set, maybe make it roll-under the higher of those two stats, or the lower, or the average? (and if you want to get really 1e about it, modify the roll due to helmet worn, racial perception benefits/penalties, and so forth).

Ability checks in general. I like how some checks are handled and in some cases I like opposing checks. What i'm not sure about is checks like Stealth vs Perception. AD&D handled it with Thief skills with reducing % chance based on the level of the target. With the simple ability system 5E has it works, not sure if and how that will translate though.

Again, roll-under for the win.

Backgrounds. I also like backgrounds although the are really nothing more than 2E kits.

Trivially easy to port into 2e even if only for flavour i.e. with any mechanical effects stripped off.

Variety of Monsters and their abilities. This is one of my biggest likes but of course it's somewhat negated by all the downsides such as bounded accuracy and hit points. I love the little things added to monsters such as pack tactics, aggressive, nimble escape, and legendary/lair actions. I think they add a lot of flair to ordinary creatures. I always loved to throw in surprises with my monsters in AD&D and was happy to see those types of things in 5E. Of course like anything they lose their surprise fast when they are hardcoded into the design unless you change them up.

Here is one place where you don't need to change a thing! You can use monsters from any edition, stock-as-printed or reskinned or tweaked or whatever. Been doing this for years myself.

What this means is that you can mix up some otherwise tried-and-true monsters - you could have the Orc mooks be similar to 4e minions, the weaker ones use 1e stats, the soldier types use 3e stats, and the leaders use 5e stats with legendary or lair actions. All in the same village!