Help me Choose a Dragon

[jjrtootle]

I'm planning to throw a dragon of some sort against my players in an upcoming session, but I'm having trouble deciding what level monster is appropriate for my group. The players are:

(all level 5)
Dwarf Paladin
Tiefling Rogue
Deva Avenger
Half-elf Druid

My part previously included a leader . . . but not anymore. These players are all pretty casual as far as combat is concerned (they lean more toward role-playing), so the characters are not optimized for combat and they tend to be weaker on tactics. Some of the characters have retrained skills/powers to give the group more healing abilities since the loss of the leader, but it's still a net loss. I've was leaning toward a young mercury dragon (level 6) . . . but I don't know if that will be too tough for them.

Any help is appreciated.

 

[Ferghis]

One level 6 is gonna be a camewalk for them. A pair of Orium Dragon Wyrmling siblings: Login to Compendium

Check to make sure the stats are updated to MM3 numbers.

One of them has two extra Str, and two less Wis, and the other is the opposite. Add a push one to the claw attacks of the strong one (makes the dwarf happy), and give the wise one two minions per breath weapon attack. Add a terrain hazard (hot spring? hallucinogenic mushroom patch? magnetic zone?) in the lair. Let the party find them bickering with each other, and give them surprise if they attack immediately. If they wait, have a breath weapon minion attack them and raise alarm.

RP-wise make the dragons bicker about the paladin's religion, the tiefling's family, or the deva's prior life. Have the wise one explain to the strong one what's weird in a mocking tone, and then have the strong one knock the other one back. Try to make one of the two get away if the PCs win.

 

[DragoonLance]

If the party is unoptimized, has no leader and don't use tactics, it's really hard to say. I've thrown encounters at my group I thought would be easy and they struggled just because they could not work together at all. If they enjoy RP I would be sure to setup the encounter so there is a way to win without needing to fight, or perhaps if they can bloody the dragon have it fly off to heal up then hunt them down later. The one encounter I didn't plan any other options other than fighting for turned into a TPK.

 

[Jhaelen]

One level 6 is gonna be a camewalk for them.

You think so? Did you notice it's only 4 pcs without a leader?

I used the young blue dragon from the monster vault (a level 6 artillery solo) against a level 5 party (of five with _two_ leaders!) and it was _very_ close to a tpk. In fact they only just managed to get it down below half hit points before they decided it was probably a better idea to surrender.

I think the mercury dragon isn't as dangerous as the MV blue dragon, but it ain't gonna be a cakewalk.

I don't recall right now if it already uses the latest damage expressions, but if it doesn't I'd recommend to update them and use it for the encounter but make sure to offer alternative ways to end the encounter than beating it to death.

 

[Ferghis]

I do think a single level 6 would be a cakewalk for them. I could be wrong. To my great dismay, it's happened before.

But my experience with 4e is that it's pretty hard to make terrible characters. And you've got half a leader with the dwarf pally. He can minor to heal him- or herself. And he can lay on hands the others. Also, my experience (possibly with more tactically or optimized oriented parties) is that characters are evenly matched against a party of opponents of about level+2. These are two enemies of level+1. Elites, admittedly, but still...

As long as the characters have at least +9 or 10 to hit AC, they'll be fine. That's +2 for level, +1 for item, +2/3 for proficiency, +4 for attribute bonus, and a +1 for expertise (it's my hope, at this point, that most DMs give expertise - and a defensive feat - for free). With CA or some other buff, they'll be hitting AC about half the time, much more often for the Avenger, who can also grant one other important missed attack a reroll.

As a safety, place a couple of healing potions in the horde, and put the horde in the fight area. Also, if things are going badly, have the smart one flee when it is bloodied.

 

[Ferghis]

Oh: I almost forgot.

Split the dragon's Draconic Fury attacks, especially for the not-so-smart one, even if it is marked. This will avoid focus firing on one PC, and allow that dwarf's mark punish the dragon on most rounds. I would offer advice on how to make the other characters shine, but I don't know their builds. Look at the powers they have, and what would be the best way to make them shine. Perhaps that will make the players take a second look at their tactical choices.

 

[S'mon]

I would use a Young Adult Red Dragon, Monster Vault stats - level 7 Solo - which should make a suitably epic fight. However I halve monster hp, it might be a bit tough & grindy at full hp.

 

[Ferghis]

Also, losing a fight to a Dragon would not be the worst thing in the universe, provided most of them survive.

 

[Ferghis]

I would use a Young Adult Red Dragon, Monster Vault stats - level 7 Solo - which should make a suitably epic fight. However I halve monster hp, it might be a bit tough & grindy at full hp.

My problem with the level 7 dragon is its defenses. If the characters are not optimized, they may have an attack bonus of +9 vs AC (which is what the rogue, paladin, and avenger will be attacking, for the most part). Against AC 23, even with CA, their hit rate will be lousy, which will make it an annoying fight. Halving the HP might resolve this, but that feels to me like an unfair handicap. Obviously, that's wholly subjective, and the suggestion is otherwise solid.

 

[jjrtootle]

My problem with the level 7 dragon is its defenses. If the characters are not optimized, they may have an attack bonus of +9 vs AC (which is what the rogue, paladin, and avenger will be attacking, for the most part). Against AC 23, even with CA, their hit rate will be lousy, which will make it an annoying fight. Halving the HP might resolve this, but that feels to me like an unfair handicap. Obviously, that's wholly subjective, and the suggestion is otherwise solid.

Yeah, this group isn't really into power gaming. The group attack bonuses are:
Paladin: +9
Rogue: +10
Avenger: +11
Druid: +8

Although, as Ferghis pointed out, the Druid doesn't have any powers which attack AC.