Dandu
First Post
No.
The game just doesn't work that way. Monks are one of the most item dependent classes printed. You want someone self contained without need of equipment? Play a spellcaster with Eschew Materials.
Help me convince my DM that monks aren't broken
- Thread starter Borthos
- Start date
The game just doesn't work that way. Monks are one of the most item dependent classes printed. You want someone self contained without need of equipment? Play a spellcaster with Eschew Materials.
I understand why one would not allow non-core classes, but a any DM should at least be able to handle the core classes.
Unless there is some reason to the campaigns story why monks don't exist (similar to how Sorcerers might not exist in a low-magic campaign) I don't get why they should be banned.
Only situation where Monks might be overpowered is when you select the Vow of Poverty, since this prevents the use of magical weapons, armor or wands.
Unless there is some reason to the campaigns story why monks don't exist (similar to how Sorcerers might not exist in a low-magic campaign) I don't get why they should be banned.
Only situation where Monks might be overpowered is when you select the Vow of Poverty, since this prevents the use of magical weapons, armor or wands.
Wyvernhand
First Post
False. Monks are probably the MOST item dependant class, despite their plethora of abilities. They are one of the worst classes that are impacted by VoP. VoP Monk is a trap, in that it looks good on paper, but when you put it together, really underperforms. First of all, VoP only gives you about 60% WBL, which granted, is better than no wealth, but not as good as normal wealth. Secondly, it allows for no customization. Most notably, any method of flight. On a Monk, who has no inate method of flight, that is bad (its also bad for a Fighter, Paladin, or other non-spellcaster, but thats another story).
The main issue with Monks is their lack of focus. Someone mentioned MAD, the fact that a Monk needs 4 high stats, and even their 2 dump stats (Int and Cha) still have some significant uses. They have speed, but Flurry of Blows only functions when they stand still. They have a lot of little abilities that are neat, but ultimately aren't that relevant. Slowfall? Yay, a 1st level spell, with more limitations. SR? Too little, WAY too late. Also, affects allies buffs/heals unless you take a standard action to lower it, which leaves you vulnerable. Dim Door 1/day? ONCE PER DAY!?!?! That's certainly useful when you get fog clouded for the 2nd time that day. Immunity to Diseases? Hardly needed with all good saves and a decent Con. Become an Outsider? What monster will a 20th level Monk fight that CAN'T overcome DR/Magic? Oh, and you are no longer a valid target for Enlarge Person, a critical Monk buff. Etc. I could keep going all day.
Monks are a gilted class. They have a lot of shiney abilities that make them look "overpowered", but when you look deeper, you find out that its just worthless wood underneath.
Contrast with Wizards. They get like, NO class features outside of 5 bonus feats and a pet. Then, when you look at how ZOMGAMAZING spellcasting is, the class is the most amazing powerful thing ever. Its the opposite with the Monk. On the tin, it looks pretty dang skippy, but reality is much less so.
The main issue with Monks is their lack of focus. Someone mentioned MAD, the fact that a Monk needs 4 high stats, and even their 2 dump stats (Int and Cha) still have some significant uses. They have speed, but Flurry of Blows only functions when they stand still. They have a lot of little abilities that are neat, but ultimately aren't that relevant. Slowfall? Yay, a 1st level spell, with more limitations. SR? Too little, WAY too late. Also, affects allies buffs/heals unless you take a standard action to lower it, which leaves you vulnerable. Dim Door 1/day? ONCE PER DAY!?!?! That's certainly useful when you get fog clouded for the 2nd time that day. Immunity to Diseases? Hardly needed with all good saves and a decent Con. Become an Outsider? What monster will a 20th level Monk fight that CAN'T overcome DR/Magic? Oh, and you are no longer a valid target for Enlarge Person, a critical Monk buff. Etc. I could keep going all day.
Monks are a gilted class. They have a lot of shiney abilities that make them look "overpowered", but when you look deeper, you find out that its just worthless wood underneath.
Contrast with Wizards. They get like, NO class features outside of 5 bonus feats and a pet. Then, when you look at how ZOMGAMAZING spellcasting is, the class is the most amazing powerful thing ever. Its the opposite with the Monk. On the tin, it looks pretty dang skippy, but reality is much less so.
I've done fine with 3-stat monks- Dex, Wis, Con, usually- but even that is a tad MADish.
StreamOfTheSky
Adventurer
No.
StreamOfTheSky
Adventurer
Yup.
Jackinthegreen
Explorer
Poop being a CW Samurai of course.
I read JKaron's schpiel about the Tiers. Apart from things like Factotoms and their ability to take extra actions, most of the Tier rankings are based on spell casting. There are some major problems with what JKaron presents and on many levels it amounts to disinformation.
First off, let me state right up front I'm not trying to say that Monks are overpowered. I'll also state that under the assumptions made by JKaron, I'm sure his ranking is accurate enough. But the invalidty of what he suggests is a result of the invalidity of his assumptions...the chief being that every spell is accessible to everyone who can cast it.
In essence, under Jkaron's logic, one could argue that one of the most dangerous weapons in the U.S. is the semi. Why? Because you can pack it full of more nuclear weapons than a fighter plane and drive it 100 MPH right through the fences at the White House and wipe out all of Washington DC. That's right...it could conceivably happen. If it did happen, it would change the very fabric of the trucking industry and motor transportation. This is essentially the argument that JKaron makes with Wizards. They could do all this crazy stuff if there was no such thing as (game) reality getting in the way.
If Wizards were routinely able to access all the spells in every splat book, the very lore of D&D would be vastly different, not to mention the day to day live of every individual. If Wizards could so easily create Obdurium aniamtes that were impervioius to damage, or never ending wealth, or constantly use Contadt Other Plane to learn any thing they needed to know...Wizards would control everything. No non-Wizard could ever be lied to or deceived. Wizards would have armies of nearly invincible soldiers and martial types would never ever be employed to wage war. There'd be no point.
The same could be said about Clerics. So obviously D&D anticipates some mechanic controls the availability and accessibility of high levle magic. I would wager that mechanic is called the "DM".
I don't think anyone bats an eye at the idea that a DM should control the proliferation and availablity of magic items. But somehow spells are different? Grant it, the rules seem kind of sketchy on denying spells to Sorcs/Bards and non-arcane casters, but I'll wager there is a non-house rule mechanics which allows it.
The bottom line is I think this notion of Tier ranking the classes to be informative only in the sense it tells you that Spell/Magic are the source of gamebreaking power and that controlling the accessibility of such things is the key to balance the classes.
Feats could be just as bad, but WotC authors haven't gone hog wild on Feats like they have with spells. I think the reason is pretty straightforward as Feats are predominately non-maigical or of limited magic in origin. A spell is "magic" so you can make up anything you want and thus create unwieldy options for the game.
