Wyvernhand
First Post
I have no other advice other than "Play a druid" and "Swarm him with Hippogriffs". Its the core only version of "nuke it from orbit, its the only way to be sure".
Help me convince my DM that monks aren't broken
- Thread starter Borthos
- Start date
Challenge the Druid PC with your Monk in a Thunderdome challenge.
The PC that wins gets axed from the game as being overpowered.
The PC that wins gets axed from the game as being overpowered.
Short convo with my DM about why he thinks monks are broke beyond broke.
Me "Hey, lets have a little friendly back and forth on monks. Why are monks OP?"
DM "They are just too powerful. High ass ac later and up to d20 for dmg. Early on it's just kinda too much dmg."
Me "Why is their AC so high? I've never seen a monk with a d20 damage die."
DM "AC from the wis bonus ability. Epic monks get d20."
Me "In return for Wis to AC the monk can't wear armor. He needs 4 stats to be viable: strength to damage, Dex/Wis to ac/saves, con for survivability/saves, arguably Int to skills. In a point buy game, that's veeery hard to achieve, stat rolls somewhat easier but also vary wildly for the actual stats you roll."
DM "I've never had a monk played that didn't find a way to be broken. I just don't like monks. He can play one but I'll be watching for the key things."
Me "What key things?"
DM "OP damage, OP saves, snatch
ing arrows! it's like rogue/fighter all in one. and you can never be stripped of weapons unless I cut off your hands."
Me "Deflect arrows only works 1/rd, not once per enemy. Saves are the only redeeming feature of the monk, and with the focus on 4 stats, damage can be a problem."
DM "W/e I'm ready to rock tomorrow, anyway."
Me "Hey, lets have a little friendly back and forth on monks. Why are monks OP?"
DM "They are just too powerful. High ass ac later and up to d20 for dmg. Early on it's just kinda too much dmg."
Me "Why is their AC so high? I've never seen a monk with a d20 damage die."
DM "AC from the wis bonus ability. Epic monks get d20."
Me "In return for Wis to AC the monk can't wear armor. He needs 4 stats to be viable: strength to damage, Dex/Wis to ac/saves, con for survivability/saves, arguably Int to skills. In a point buy game, that's veeery hard to achieve, stat rolls somewhat easier but also vary wildly for the actual stats you roll."
DM "I've never had a monk played that didn't find a way to be broken. I just don't like monks. He can play one but I'll be watching for the key things."
Me "What key things?"
DM "OP damage, OP saves, snatch
ing arrows! it's like rogue/fighter all in one. and you can never be stripped of weapons unless I cut off your hands."Me "Deflect arrows only works 1/rd, not once per enemy. Saves are the only redeeming feature of the monk, and with the focus on 4 stats, damage can be a problem."
DM "W/e I'm ready to rock tomorrow, anyway."
As stated above, I love monks.
1) Compare their base damage to a Fighter. A fighter can start off with 2d6 at 1st level. It takes a Monk a while to get there, and he cannot accelerate that (without the allowing of INA).
2) I rarely see them succeed at Snatching F-ing Arrows.
3) MAD is a bitch.*
4) Campaigns rarely reach the point where the "better" Monk abilities become available.
$0.02.
* which is why I almost always go Dex/Wis/Con build monks to minimize that.
1) Compare their base damage to a Fighter. A fighter can start off with 2d6 at 1st level. It takes a Monk a while to get there, and he cannot accelerate that (without the allowing of INA).
2) I rarely see them succeed at Snatching F-ing Arrows.
3) MAD is a bitch.*
4) Campaigns rarely reach the point where the "better" Monk abilities become available.
$0.02.
* which is why I almost always go Dex/Wis/Con build monks to minimize that.
Dandu
First Post
As loath as I am to say it... go for broke with a full spellcaster. Just be sure to cover all the pesky little things the DM will try to throw at you, like thiefs stealing your spell component pouch or random encounters while you sleep. I recommend a sorcerer with Eschew Materials and Rope Trick for starters.
Of course, as noted earlier, a druid works too.
Of course, as noted earlier, a druid works too.
Talonblaze
First Post
Short convo with my DM about why he thinks monks are broke beyond broke.
Me "Hey, lets have a little friendly back and forth on monks. Why are monks OP?"
DM "They are just too powerful. High ass ac later and up to d20 for dmg. Early on it's just kinda too much dmg."
Me "Why is their AC so high? I've never seen a monk with a d20 damage die."
DM "AC from the wis bonus ability. Epic monks get d20."
Me "In return for Wis to AC the monk can't wear armor. He needs 4 stats to be viable: strength to damage, Dex/Wis to ac/saves, con for survivability/saves, arguably Int to skills. In a point buy game, that's veeery hard to achieve, stat rolls somewhat easier but also vary wildly for the actual stats you roll."
DM "I've never had a monk played that didn't find a way to be broken. I just don't like monks. He can play one but I'll be watching for the key things."
Me "What key things?"
DM "OP damage, OP saves, snatch
Me "Deflect arrows only works 1/rd, not once per enemy. Saves are the only redeeming feature of the monk, and with the focus on 4 stats, damage can be a problem."
DM "W/e I'm ready to rock tomorrow, anyway."
And a fighter with Combat Expertise, Dodge, and addon on he probably has full plate and a tower shield makes him have a: 5+1+8+1+4= 29 AC just at level 5 with no enhancements. 25 AC if he is level 1. Find me a monk that can top that.
Fighter's can take almost any feat that a Monk can when they take Improved Unarmed Strike as well and more. Nothing special.
Sekhmet
First Post
He does seem to be very obstinate about it.
Yes, a Monk has 2d10 at level 20. Assuming he has a 16 STR, he deals (on average) 13.5 damage per hit.
A Fighter at level 20 (in just core, of course, with no special feats and only a +5 Greatsword), assuming he has a 20 strength, deals 16.5 damage. (2d6+5 greatsword, +5 str).
Consider that at level 1, a Monk has a d6 damage dice. This is the same as a Short Sword.
At level 1, a Fighter has options. A Greatsword (2d6, literally double the effectiveness of the Monk's fist), a Longsword (1d8, 33% better than the fist), or everyone's favourite exotic weapon - the Spiked Chain (2d4, at around 40% more damage than the fist).
It isn't until level 12 that a Monk has 2d6 damage, something the Fighter and Barbarian tote since level 1 - and if you think they don't have magical versions of their weapons by now, you're either simple or playing in a no magic world.
...the Monk doesn't even compare. Add in Power Attack, Charging, Leap Attack, Shocktrooper, Enlarge spells, Exotic Weapons, etcetera etcetera and the Monk gets left behind so dramatically it isn't amusing.
Even in core, the Monk's AC actually can keep up with a light armour user (without having to stretch your money across lots of armour gear), but without going outside of core (or just making your own armour - something the Monk can't do himself), the Monk can't keep up with a Heavy Armour user.
Their saves are fantastic. You can't argue that.
I'm not really seeing the "rogue/fighter" idea. No skills, no SA, no finesse means no Rogue. No armour, no exotic weapons, no versatility means no Fighter.
Yes, a Monk has 2d10 at level 20. Assuming he has a 16 STR, he deals (on average) 13.5 damage per hit.
A Fighter at level 20 (in just core, of course, with no special feats and only a +5 Greatsword), assuming he has a 20 strength, deals 16.5 damage. (2d6+5 greatsword, +5 str).
Consider that at level 1, a Monk has a d6 damage dice. This is the same as a Short Sword.
At level 1, a Fighter has options. A Greatsword (2d6, literally double the effectiveness of the Monk's fist), a Longsword (1d8, 33% better than the fist), or everyone's favourite exotic weapon - the Spiked Chain (2d4, at around 40% more damage than the fist).
It isn't until level 12 that a Monk has 2d6 damage, something the Fighter and Barbarian tote since level 1 - and if you think they don't have magical versions of their weapons by now, you're either simple or playing in a no magic world.
...the Monk doesn't even compare. Add in Power Attack, Charging, Leap Attack, Shocktrooper, Enlarge spells, Exotic Weapons, etcetera etcetera and the Monk gets left behind so dramatically it isn't amusing.
Even in core, the Monk's AC actually can keep up with a light armour user (without having to stretch your money across lots of armour gear), but without going outside of core (or just making your own armour - something the Monk can't do himself), the Monk can't keep up with a Heavy Armour user.
Their saves are fantastic. You can't argue that.
I'm not really seeing the "rogue/fighter" idea. No skills, no SA, no finesse means no Rogue. No armour, no exotic weapons, no versatility means no Fighter.
Dandu
First Post
I actually have several level 10 PCs, one of whom is a monk. They're for the now-abandoned Redtonic challenge where he was testing a balancing mechanism for spellcasters.
These are four SRD only PCs that are built by someone who probably ranks in the top 50 optimizers in the Charop community - pardon the conceit. This is probably a good monk... and it is still the weakest member of the party.
These are four SRD only PCs that are built by someone who probably ranks in the top 50 optimizers in the Charop community - pardon the conceit. This is probably a good monk... and it is still the weakest member of the party.
Last edited:
StreamOfTheSky
Adventurer
Man, I'm psychic!
StreamOfTheSky on page 1 said:
The only two ways to go from here are the viscerally satisfying full power spellcaster that obliterates his puny campaign world. Or option B: Run a short game of your own. Tell the DM you INSIST he plays one of those broken monks. Make sure your good at optimizing friends play the other martial classes in the party. Give the party something really high like 38 point buy so he has no damned excuse whatsoever when his "broken monk" proceeds to fail utterly.
That will be the only way he will learn. To actually experience the monk's weakness firsthand, with every possible cop-out removed from the equation.
Last edited:
Similar Threads
