Help me convince my players that the Cleric is cool

[Trainz]

I have to agree with Lord Pendragon on this one...

If a "party member" charged for each spell he cast for the party, then obviously he's not a party member, but a hireling: you will get paid for your spells, but that's ALL you get. No treasure for you. At least, as a party member that's what I would suggest.

-"Yes Father Scrooge, I do beleive that's a periapt that enhances one's wisdom we found in the dragon's hoard... well, of course you can have it... that will be 8,000 gold pieces."

 

[The Thayan Menace]

Ghoul School is Back in Session: Let the Carnage Begin!

Given the general propensity for a vulnerability to daylight and an affiliation with dead creatures, I'd guess that their typical environment would involve being underground, indoors and in a generally cramped environment.

Agreed, but there are ways you can bring sunlight to them regardless (e.g., stone shaping walls, breaking mausoleum windows, or opening the right door).

Your solution appears to be "never let them hit you".

Good thinking there.

It is a good solution, isn't it? Thank you, by the way (I got that one from the Karate Kid).

Oh, and ghoul fever's fort save is a DC 12. An untrained healer with a +2 wisdom bonus will automatically get that while taking 10. Hell, if you've got two people with no idea what they're doing taking 10, then you end up with 12, and you're just fine.

I commend you for refusing their life-saving aid however.

A +2 Wisdom bonus is not typical (unless you are a cleric), however you do have a good point here.

Also, I feel that I should also clarify something: I never said that I would refuse an untrained healer's assistance. I merely stated that I prefer a trained professional (i.e., a cleric).

Please get your facts straight.

As to ghouls: Paralysis is for 1d4+1 rounds, is avoidable on a relatively easy save, elves are immune to it, and the FIRST people on the firing line are the cleric and the fighter unless you've been ambushed.

1. A man can lose a lot of flesh in 1d4+1 rounds.

2. Even PCs with good Fort saves, ocasionally fail their rolls when pressed with multiple attacks (and ghouls have three).

3. Very few DMs run an ALL elven party.

4. Ghouls are some of the best ambushers in the game.

 

[Saeviomagy]

1. A man can lose a lot of flesh in 1d4+1 rounds.

IF his buddies stand by and let him.

2. Very few DMs run an ALL elven party.

But enough run a party with enough elves to stop the ghouls from chowing down with abandon.

3. Even PCs with good Fort saves, ocasionally fail their rolls when pressed with multiple attacks.

And that spell you cited only gives them another chance at that.

4. Ghouls are some of the best ambushers in the game.

Ghouls ain't got nuthin.

You know those level draining undead that you're so convinced will never reach your party? Vampire spawn have twice the bonus to hide and move silently of a ghoul...

 

[The Thayan Menace]

How Many Elves Are Enough?

Saeviomagy:

1. Paralyzed people cannot fight back. Clerics help cut down on this problem more than having enough elves.

2. You speak of a cited spell. Please specify.

3. You may malign ghouls and clerics, but I strongly suspect that you have not employed them properly.

4. By the way, vampire spawn are not usually free willed. Plus, ghouls can operate in sunlight with no penalties.

 

[The Thayan Menace]

Ghoul Hunting Without A Cleric

Saeviomagy:

Let me get this straight ....


In the perfect ghoul hunting party (sans cleric):

1. At least two party members have Wisdom scores over 11.

2. There are "enough" elves.

3. The PCs laugh at DC 12 Fortitude saves.

Dude, you guys are ghoul chow.

 

[Trainz]

Is a single ghoul too much for a 1st level party of four (ClericFighterThiefWizard) ?

I so want to throw one in the first game I told you about. You tease.

 

[The Thayan Menace]

Query About Undead

You know those level draining undead that you're so convinced will never reach your party?

No, actually I don't. Please refresh my memory ... if you can.

 

[The Thayan Menace]

Ghoulish Fun

Is a single ghoul too much for a 1st level party of four (ClericFighterThiefWizard) ?

No, that's an EL 1 encounter.

It should keep them on their toes though.

However, I would consider stacking two levels of rogue on that ghoul and springing it on the players as part of a "big boss" encounter at the end of your first session (EL 3).

To build up suspense, the ghoul could stalk the party throughout the session ... just waiting for its chance to take one of them by surprise.

It could also leave calling cards ... like mutilated animals and the bones of orphaned children.

If you play it up right, ghouls are good fun at any table.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Saeviomagy:
1. Paralyzed people cannot fight back. Clerics help cut down on this problem more than having enough elves.

Hmm. lemme get this straight. You're going to take a cleric, who may or may not have a level 2 spell with very restricted use, and who will most likely be one of the first party members paralysed(due to being a front line combatant when compared with, say, a rogue or wizard) over someone who will not be paralysed.

2. You speak of a cited spell. Please specify.

Remove paralysis. Please try to keep track of your own arguments.

3. You may malign ghouls and clerics, but I strongly suspect that you have not employed them properly.

Ghouls are a low-level threat to a low-level party, who are quite competently handled without a cleric.

Add one cleric, and ...basically nothing changes.

4. By the way, vampire spawn are not usually free willed. Plus, ghouls can operate in sunlight with no penalties.

And? Free willed or no, they still level drain you. And it's still 100% absolutely no-holds-barred essential that you have a cleric, or you permanently lose levels when fighting them, unless they were a total pushover.

1. At least two party members have Wisdom scores over 11.

No. At least two party members don't have wisdoms of under 10. That's fairly common believe it or not.

2. There are "enough" elves.
3. The PCs laugh at DC 12 Fortitude saves.

Hardly. But they do have a good chance of success.

1 unparalysed party member left at the end of a fight is 'enough'. Whether that springs from elves or fortitude saves is another matter.

Dude, you guys are ghoul chow.

And I suppose your ghoul-hunting parties use up multiple remove paralysis spells, remove disease spells and the like every combat? Never mind the fact that you're fighting CR 1 threats at... hmmm... 5th level.

No, actually I don't. Please refresh my memory ... if you can.

Again. Keep track of your own argument. You gave a list of tactics for fighting level-draining undead without a cleric, and were relying on the undead never giving you a negative level in the first place. In other words - the undead never reaching you.

My argument is that the only reason clerics are essential in a party is negative levels, and when negative levels are present, the fun of all is decreased, because the cleric HAS to deal with them or else.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Is a single ghoul too much for a 1st level party of four (ClericFighterThiefWizard) ?

I predict it'll drop in a round or two, depending on how offensive your fighter, wizard and thief are, and the situation.

If you ambush them with it in close confines, it'll have fun chomping on one party member a bit while the others have serious problems getting through to attack it reliably.

If it goes them across open space, it probably won't even get a round of attacks in.

The biggest danger they'll have is that the cleric will turn it and it'll run off, leading them through other monsters.